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Defense of Marriage Act: A Crack in the Crock

| February 25, 2011

Robert Mapplethorpe, 'Ken Moody and Robert Sherman,' 1984 (Gelatin silver print, Whitney Museum of American Art)

Robert Mapplethorpe, 'Ken Moody and Robert Sherman,' 1984 (Gelatin silver print, Whitney Museum of American Art)

FlaglerLive Editor Pierre Tristam’s weekly commentaries are broadcast on WNZF on Fridays just after 9 a.m. Here’s this week’s.

Revolutions aren’t happening only in the Middle East. The United States had a minor revolution of its own this week. Or at least a coming to its senses. The Obama administration finally discovered that the Defense of Homophobia Act, usually known as the Defense of Marriage Act, is unconstitutional. It won’t be defending it in court. It’s about time, correcting one of the Clinton administration’s most craven surrenders to the nation’s reactionary mullahs. Aside from its denial of a basic right to millions of people, making it incompatible with the 14th Amendment, and its interference where it doesn’t belong, the Defense of Marriage Act is indistinguishable from a religious edict. As such, it’s an offense to the First Amendment.


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Speeches from the Senate floor the day the Senate voted on the act in September 1996 might as well have been plagiarized from the caves of the Vatican. Here was Senator Robert C. Byrd declaring that “One has only to turn to the Old Testament and read the word of God to understand how eternal is the true definition of marriage.” That’s from the same playbook that once had the radio talk show nut Laura Ingraham calling homosexuals “a biological error,” as if heterosexual marriage didn’t have a rich history of biological warfare (where would family court be without it?). And here was Trent Lott, the Senate majority leader at the time, declaring the new law “a response to an attack upon the institution of marriage itself,” as if homosexual love were America’s new Pearl Harbor.

To those stately bigots, it was. The Hawaiian Supreme Court had just declared marriage a “basic civil right.” America panicked at the thought of gay couples from the mainland going to Hawaii to get hitched up. The new law denied federal benefits to married people of the same sex, and it allowed states to ignore such marriages, which made mockery of states’ rights, usually a fetish of conservatives.

Ever since, the likes of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, trying to fake some liberalism, have gone with the separate-but-equal proposition that civil unions are OK, but gay marriage still not, thus endorsing a new manner of segregation as revolting as the more traditionally American version that gave us separate drinking fountains and white-only schools. Encouraged by so much state-sponsored contempt for gays, more than a dozen states, including Florida, passed amendments to their constitution making homophobia legal. It’ll take a while before that tide of hatred recedes. Repealing Don’t Ask Don’t Tell was a good step. Divorcing the federal government from its defense of homophobia is another. But it’s still a very long way from the altar of equal rights.

–Pierre Tristam

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71 Responses for “Defense of Marriage Act: A Crack in the Crock”

  1. Tom Brown says:

    A truer test of Obama’s commitment to marriage equality is whether he will support bills to repeal the act. (Legislation to do so has been re-filed by Rep. Jerry Nadler and Sen. Dianne Feinstein.) Even Bob Barr, the conservative Georgia Republican who wrote DOMA now admits the law was a mistake. The Clintons contend DOMA was necessary to derail a move to put marriage restrictions into a constitutional amendment. Bill should have just vetoed the thing. Incidentally, Obama is still supporting Section 2 which lets anti-gay states not recognize the marriages performed in equality states. So, for now, Florida can go on making life tough for the same-sex spouses and their kids who move here from Massachusetts, Connecticut, D.C., Iowa, New Hampshire, etc.

  2. William says:

    Announcer’s voice:

    We interrupt your regular programming to bring you this piece of breaking news. From our fairly imbalanced news desk at Fux Noise, here’s Greta VanLesbian with the details:

    Greta: Ladies and Gentlemen, we are witnessing a scene of utter bedlam here at the Family Research Council. Shock and disbelief are the order of the day, as confused homophobes wander aimlessly chanting “The End is Here!” All children have been removed from the compound for their own safety. There have been scattered reports of suicide bombings by some of the faithful, who have been reported to walk up to anyone appearing to be a godless fucking liberal heathen, and letting their heads explode. Walking toward me now is someone who appears to be a council elder. “Sir, what has been the overall reaction to thi…..

    (Video feed goes dead)

    Announcer: We seem to have lost the signal from the scene. While our crews work to re-establish communication, we’ll take this commercial break.

  3. Angie says:

    Keep marriage the way God intended it, One Man-One Woman!
    But still love the people whether they be Gay, an addict, an alcoholic, whatever the sin they are living in we are still to LOVE and treat them just the same.

  4. Christie2012 says:

    Unbelievable, Is this the new norm for this country? If we don’t believe the law to be just, we will just ignore it. Should a republican win the presidency in 2012, will it be OK for them to to ignore Row v Wade.
    It is truly amazing how this administration has no respect for the law. Just look at the federal judge ruling in Louisiana with off shore drilling and the ruling in Florida and Virgina on Obmacare.

  5. PC MAN says:

    Angie and Christie2012 get over it. This is coming whether you like it or not, you are probably showing your age though because no one under 40 see’s this as a problem, it’s just science. Although a mind damaged by religion will achieve the same results. I’m sure your parents acted in the same way when black and white people were allowed to marry. The evolution of man is wonderful.

  6. The evolution of man in this strangely puritan country is shamefully behind the times, PC Man. Christie2112, Angie and the rest of the scared of the Biblically foretold gloom and doom of some kind are necessary in order for the rest of us to have something to desire to change. Too bad the old guard seems to be multiplying though.

  7. Christie2012 says:

    It’s not about religion,it’s about the law!!! We have an an administration that thinks they are above the law. I guess not enforcing the law is nothing new for these people, they sue the State of Arizona because they want to enforce a law the federal government won’t.
    This whole thing is about gaining votes in 2012, we have the undocumented democrats streaming across the border and now we just ignore a law to gain votes.

  8. William says:

    Hey, Christie 2012!

    You rode the short bus, didn’t you? It’s OK to admit it, really. Because you just don’t get it.

    You’re demonizing the current administration for coming out against a draconian law in Arizona, while ignoring draconian measures brought to bear on you right here? I’m no great fan of Obama, but you really should observe public utterances by our “elected leaders” more carefully, as you seem incapable of seeing the strings which cause the marionette of the day to dance.

    You screech about the “rule of law” as pertains to your limited capacity to understand, when the subject matter falls into your deluded understanding of such trivial matters as denying the justice and equality you would yourself demand, when the group in question does not adhere to your particular flavor of dogma.

    We’re being blued, screwed, and tattooed by the 1-2% of society, the OWNERS, but in your narrow little worldview that is unimportant. Gotta do something about those heathen LGBT sorts, because THEY are the danger to my way of life, my security, my family values.

    What I find most interesting is the fact that you conservatives will crow endlessly about smaller, less intrusive government. Unless it is your particular straw man, at which point you expect government to legislate morality. Your morality. And you do so blissfully ignorant of the fact that this brings your hypocrisy to the fore.

    You are not merely a hypocrite, but you are also an unprincipled gasbag, who is too fucking lazy to fight for anything other than your prejudices. Do the human gene pool a favor. Get eaten by a shark. Although this would neccessarily involve cruelty to animals, in this instance, and for the greater good, I’m willing to overlook it.

    Besides, sharks are immune to cancer.

  9. Suzy Yogi says:

    As always, well thought out and well written Pierre.

  10. PC MAN says:

    Christie2012 my President thinks it’s OK for two people who love each other to be able to marry. Your president thought it was OK to water-board and torture people. You lose.

  11. Angie says:

    I’m actually under 40 thank you! And my parents or grandparents had no problems with Blacks and whites either. Truth is truth and people who are living in sin don’t like to hear truth. It’s not about religion it’s all about Jesus and the Word of God and truth is homosexuality is a SIN which you can be delivered from, but if your living in sin you will not enter Heaven, plain and simple. But I love everyone equal it’s not the person it’s the sin we aren’t suppose to like. But I have to speak truth.

    I Timothy 1:9-11
    9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

  12. PC MAN says:

    Angie if you wish to live your life like a zombie following a an outdated book of stories that’s fine, just don’t make other people have to as well.

  13. Christie2012 says:

    William, Whats wrong with the short bus, you have an issue with kids that have mental and physical disabilities. In the age of civility, you and so many like you talk from both sides of your mouth.

  14. flagler1 says:

    By the way Willian, Draconion should be capitalized. I am very comfortable with my homophobia. I am also afraid of snakes, terrorists, explosives…you kow basically anything that is a threat to our way of life in the United States of America.

  15. William says:

    I would say ignorance is one of the biggest threats to our way of life. And this article has brought it slithering from all cracks and crevices. By the way, it’s spelled Draconian.

    And Angie, I have no problems with someone practicing their faith, whatever faith that might be. Where I have a problem is when people try to impose their faith on me, and try to bludgeon me with it. You DO NOT have that right. Take care of your own yard, and leave my yard to me.

  16. Angie says:

    As a person of faith that’s what we are suppose to do is spread the Gospel. Also, that’s part of the problem today is most so called Christians tend only to their own yard as you say, but ALOT of things that happen in this world today effect my yard. It’s time for men and women of God to take a stand for what is right and what we believe in! I’m not bludgeoning you, I’m just speaking truth.
    I pray God reveals himself to you in a mighty way and you are set free and see truth.

  17. ForThePeople says:

    There were a lot of people in this country that had problems against interracial marriages now nobody thinks twice about it. There were even laws against it. That changed and this will too. If the church doesn’t recognize it that’s fine because the church say that I am not married to my wide because I’m not Catholic, but we are married according to the state. So you religious zealots out there stop forcing youropions down my throat.

  18. PC MAN says:

    Angie it was religious people like yourself with a strong belief in god that slammed planes into the Twin Towers, praise god.

  19. William says:

    There are many times where I refer to the Xtian right wing in this country as the American Taliban. Thank you Angie. You’re doing a masterful job making my argument for me.

  20. Kevin says:

    William says:
    February 25, 2011 at 1:14 pm

    “Announcer’s voice:

    We interrupt your regular programming to bring you this piece of breaking news. From our fairly imbalanced news desk at Fux Noise, here’s Greta VanLesbian with the details:”

    –Thank God and mother nature for the creation of sensibility and decency that is found primarily with conservatives instead of the rhetoric and sickening displays of ugliness that seem to pour forth from the mouths of those with ideologies like William. One moment you are spewing vitriole about decent people composing tea parties of which none of you have shown one credible shred of video footage to support the ugly accussations they have been unfairly portrayed to be, followed by ignorance like the above. If you have credible evidence, go claim the easy to earn reward offered by Andrew Breightbart for 100k for such proof.

    You should be embarrassed for saying such. Greata Van Susteren is a great reporter and enormously intelligent, having significant legal credentials and experience. It seems anyone who reports the issues fairly is attacked personally by our blantant, modern day, progressive-liberal-socialists who have come out into the light instead of scurrying away as they once did, now that their main man is in office. Where are the “ladies” if any are here, to admonish him for his comments.

    By the way William, she is married.

  21. Kevin says:

    “William says:
    February 26, 2011 at 11:13 am
    There are many times where I refer to the Xtian right wing in this country as the American Taliban. Thank you Angie. You’re doing a masterful job making my argument for me.”

    In what way William, by their profoundly giving nature involving both time and money? Or maybe it is by offering alternative choices to the public school system which pollutes students into think as you do, failing our children atr every level to keep up with their peers around the globe yet with hundreds of millions wastefully put into the National Board of Education. People like you go after Christians because they don’t hit back, the perfect target for cowards. Show me where Chrtistians have doen more recent damage to our country then say, unions and their public employee counterparts which have ripped off the citizens around the nation with their lucrative pay scales, poor performance, and exorbitant, unsustainable pensions? Now if you are like Dorothea, and you may be, you’ll probably claim there is no deficits and that they are manufactured.

  22. Kevin says:

    Dear Angie

    You will learn the hard way that progressive liberalism is in a way a religion but where 99% of the practitioners suffer mental disorders. Just look at their comments and it is obvious to everyone but those like themseves.

    The most obvious issue with them supporting my comments is their insistence of higher thinking and belief they hold to altruistic principles yet they make nothing more then personal attacks and insults aginst you when you said nothing similar in return to them justifying such. Don’t pray for them unless you are really compelled to because you are so gracious.

  23. NortonSmitty says:

    God just told me he thinks we are all Bozo’s on this bus. Amen.

  24. Haw Creek Girl says:

    About 18 yrs ago, because of a very unfortunate situation I had to explain to my 5 yr old son what ‘gay’ meant. So I explained ahd he matter of factly looled me in the eyes and said, “Mommy you must be wrong’. I was a little thrown off so i asked him to explain his thinking process. He said, “Mommy, that can’t be right because why would they do that? They can’t have babies.” Hmmmmm, out of the mouths of babes.

  25. LivingInReality says:

    So haw creek girl, is my marriage not valid because my wife and I can not have and do not want children?

  26. Haw Creek Girl says:

    I did not say your marriage was not valid because of you not wanting children but the logic of my 6 yr old was not intended towards couples who did not want children. He was specifically addressing homosexuality.

  27. LivingInReality says:

    I couple without children or ones that can’t have children decide that they want children they can adopt. The same holds true for homosexual couples as well. And I know in some peoples small minds they will say that homosexual couples can not raise children in a “proper environment” they need to stop and think. How many times a week do we hear about some “straight” family member abusing their children or someone elses children. So homosexual couple can be and are in most cases wonderful parents.

  28. Camelot says:

    It’s NOT about religion. It’s about people who DO NOT have the authority to say they will no longer recognize a law; that’s for the people to decide.

  29. Angie says:

    PC Man as you see I said Christian not religion there is a difference! Those fools that drove thru the Twin Towers were religious nuts that worship a “so called god Mohammed” which can’t do nothing for them, save them, lead them only to death and destruction. When I refer to a Christian I would be referring to a man or woman who lives by the Word of God, the Holy Bible, proclaims Jesus as their Lord and Savior, because that is the ONLY way to enter into Heaven. So don’t mix me in with religious people.

    Kevin- I must pray for all those that are bound by sin, I was once in sin and thank you Jesus someone prayed for me, and I pray that God would give me a heart for what He has a heart for, and His heart is to see people free from their sin and bondage, so therefore I’ll pray for those I come across like PC Man and William and any others that need to be freed from sim.
    That’s what Jesus would have us do and love them into the Kingdom, His heart is to see none perish!

  30. 91 LX says:

    WOW!!!! Just wow people.
    I wish more people lived like I do.
    Live and let live!
    I’m not sure what the big fuss is any ways…Marriage sucks.

  31. William says:

    Kevin, Kevin, Kevin.

    You really should lay off the Kool-Aid. You’re going to chastise me for making statements which you feel are based on provably false information, and you bolster your argument using provably false information. Those awful, awful union workers ripping off the system and getting fat at the taxpayer’s expense? Provably false. Research has shown that unionized state workers earn less than their private sector counterparts. Don’t recall the percentage, but I’ll dig it up at my leasure. Right now I’m getting off work, and I still have to go grocery shopping, so that info will come later.

    As to your argument that Xtians selflessly strive for a better world, I’ll give you half a point, since many of the church groups do good and charitable work. It is not they that I have a beef with. It is organizations, like the Family Research Council, who fill heads with hate and division. Who strive to take total control of a Woman’s uterus. Who discriminate against an entire segment of society because they don’t fit into their pious, regimented, inflexible way of thinking, although said segment has done them no harm, and only wishes to have equal rights as guaranteed under the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. So keep right on spouting your bullshit. Tell the congregation what an insufferable asshole I am. I really don’t give a fuck.

    But if you’re going to talk to me, you’d better have your facts straight, because when you don’t, I’ll be there to correct you. And yes, I know Greta is married. I really don’t give a fuck about that or her sexual orientation either. A great reporter and enourmously intelligent. If that were true she wouldn’t be hacking @ Fux Noise.

    Yes Kevin, I am embarressed. For You.

  32. Kevin says:

    Here right her now this moment I got you , you fool William. The majority of private employees don’t have defined benefit plans they have defined contribution plans. Right here you probably don;t know much of what I’m stating but what it means is that they have lucrative pensions that payout out oftimes not just for their lifetimes but also for that of their spouse’s lifetimes. You don’t have the numbers ass-waxer but I do because its what I used to do for a small time during my life a financial advisor. Different sectors receive different pension schedules but many are upwards of 80% of the HIGHEST OF THE LAST 2-3 YEARS AVERAGE OF THEIR YEARLY SALARY. You may not understand the implications of this but the bottom line is that these once well-meaning pension plans have now morphed, as payment for political favors, into lucrative jackpots! By the way Mr. Have No Facts, the average private counterpart has no pension plan, we get 401ks that we have to fund and where maybe an employer gives one 5-25% of each dollar contributed.

    And I would love for you to show what legitimate financial resource you quote stating the public employee makes less than the private counterpart given all the salary, benefits, and pension rights included. That exists only in the delusional pretend world you live in but not in a world of generally accepted accounting principals my friend.

    I would love to go on and on but my typing ski9lls break me from long posts but let me end in stating you are so wrong, no matter who or what you have done in the past, I’ll even throw you a dog bone that you may have a good heart and may be a gentleman (but I don’t see it in the slimy way you have commented about others) and may be superbly educated but on this my friend you are wrong and I would stick my neck out to debate anyone who challenged me on this subject, in a public forum (take care of my hotel stay). Like writing, reading, science, and arithmatic, the public needs to know about the details and facts about htis matter once and for all. Its breaking budgets everywhere and it can’t be supported anymore by the taxpayers as the private guy on the street can’t pay anymore in taxes–period!

  33. Kevin says:

    Its staggering the ugliness William, that you use in writing about Christians. To think that you feel and would speak and regard people like my Mother for one, with such vile and ugly contempt. Many times, there are those like her who slaved their life caring for others living life altruistically and literally give charitably up to the point of their own detriment. This is the common denominator when describing most Christians.

    Before you begin to blather about the statistically immaterial numbers who commit “sin” if I may, giving the religous practitioners a bad name, and morons like you a feeble toe-hold to attack , keep to the point that it is the exception and rarely the rule. Just like many studies in efficacies of a drug in pharmacology, the blessings from today’s modern Christians does not justify the slanderous assessements made by you and those like you (Bill Maher is one little runt that comes to mind that the left celebrate while he is a pig in pig’s clothing if ever there was one).

    Yes my foolish fool, the Christians I know do things like this. Not me as I am a horrible practitioner. I get angry at their foolish giving nature but it is they who propel the logarithmic looking chart of decline to exist.

    I have reviewed many of your posts and I see only one common denominator, you are an ugly and cowardly acting person, unjustly beating up on others without a basis of reasonble facts supporting your, often incorrect assertions. In my opinion you are so disgusting you should be poked at with the shitty end of a stick to be kept back from stinking up others with your filth.

    I ask how can any person here claiming to be of decent character support this clown or some of the factless marginalizations made by people like Norton Smitty and even the Grande Dame Dorothea??? Any group that accepts his conduct and assessments is nothing more than that of a laughing stock.

  34. Kevin says:

    My point on efficacy and Christians was that they have produced more good in today’s modern times than they have caused in damage. Please refer to my last comment again.

  35. Christie2012 says:

    Kevin, remember the union is nothing more than the financing arm of the democrat party. They now tell us it is one of our “human rights” to be allowed to have collected bargaining. Do you think William would be saying the same thing if Obama was ignoring church and state laws.(which there isn’t any).

  36. William says:

    Kevin, you still don’t get it. I will respond to your bullshit in my own time. And you’re not gonna like it. And I really don’t care if you do.

    Tomorrow’s my birthday, and as much as I am able to, I will enjoy the day. My grand kids insist on baking me a birthday cake, so I’ll play. And neither you nor your ilk will intrude. But when that’s done, I’ll talk to you.

    Here’s a hint. I was once one of you.

  37. Roy Ostapko says:

    Marriage has been also referred to as “holy” matrimony.

    If “holy” it is of God. His institution.

    I don’t think he will look too kindly on the gay community messing with his institution of marriage.

    This offends God and should deeply offend all Christians.

    We need to stand against this, AND NOT BE SILENT.

    Roy A. Ostapko

  38. 91 LX says:

    Can someone help me out here? Who died and left the Christians in charge around here? (hehehehe) I do not know alot about religion. My understanding of the Christians is that God created the hevans and earth and all the other stuff. So in by doing that does he not create who we become and how we act? And once again, I could be wrong here. But arn’t all “good Christians” supose to love all of “Gods creatures”? Last I checked homosexauls are parts of God creatures. If you love someone don’t you want then to be happy? If two gay people want to be married, who am I to stop there happiness? Thats like someone telling me I can’t eat M&M’s anymore. Not cool!!

    Relgoin is great. God is great. it gives people something to belive in. But religion is also equally evil. How many people have died from the start of time because someone thinks that thier God s better than someone elses God? Right now this very second, that is going on in the middle east.

    There are way worse things that are going on in this world right now today that we sould be dealing with here folks.

    Do to others as you would have them do to you. … Luke 6:31

    Think about that today. Do you what someone telling you how to live your life? Stop spreading hate. God does not like it! He told me that himself

  39. John Boy says:

    Let’d get things right for once. If the religious organiations want to meddle in Politic’s then let them, but takeaway thier Tax Exempt status. It’s call pay to play and it’s the only fair and just way. I’m a little tired of the Reliogous Bigiots telling me what to do. Newt and Rush each have been married three times and yet they see themselves as people we should listen to, follow, believe in. I say they are the worst of the worst. Religion has been responsible for more pain and suffering and cause more wars and destruction than any force on earth.

  40. John Boy says:

    Obama is not ignoring the law, he simply stated that his administration will no longer argue it based on the Constitution. They will still enforce the laws but willo drop that arguement. The stupid and lame brain people who think he is ignoring his responsibilities are just wrong and need to stop wataching Fox News. We sould ahve denied Rupert’s entrance into this Counrty, he was thrown out of Austrilia for because of his Facist Sttartegy.

  41. Kevin says:

    WIlliam there is nothing you can rational state that will bother me in the least so bring that keyboard of your’s on and swing away. I’ve basically stated everything I need to say so like I said I could give a rats ass.

    91LX: read the comments and you’ll see that they are about defending against some ugly vitriolic comments from some of the others here.

  42. Kevin says:

    William, there isn’t a rational commment you could make at this point that would upset me as I totally get people like you have studied them for some time now, studied even in the point of the clinical meaning when possible. I’m not one of anything you may presume me to be so bring on your keyboard and swing away my friend. I’ll probably not write back because I’ve mentioned all there is to say in defense of the decent people you love to disparage.

    91LX I realize your probably smokiing doobies prior to writing what you did but if your optic chiasm was working properly you would have understood that I was defending religious people and that the only hate being spewed from a few talking heads here against one or two people standing up for the defense of Marriage Act. There was nothing hateful about that.

  43. ForThePeople says:

    I don’t care what the churchhas to say about marriage this is about legal right of couples in this country. The church doesn’t recognize my marriage, my wife is catholic and I am not. So in the eyes of god I’m not married. But I have the legal right to visit her in the hospital. Every couple, gay or straight, should have that same right. This is no different than where interracial couples tried to marry 50 years ago. As far as religious extremists there are alot of Christian extremists to just look through history at how may people died in the name of religion, the catholic church force native Americans to convert and the they destroyed their societies. So I think that you so called Christians need to stop forcing your religion on everybody. This argument is a about legal rights not religion.

  44. Val Jaffee says:

    was Adam and Eve married?

    According to the Bible –

    Jesus was created between god and a woman and man had nothing to do with it.

    Mary and Joseph had no children together.

    Jesus never married but he did have 12 not 1 male disciples, and they would go off into the wilderness to, um, meditate? I like the guy and this does not bother me. (So this is what those cowboys were up to out on the trails for months on end with no women folks, sneaky devils)

    Of course IF ALL the books of the bible were available to us and not just a select few, we would get the whole picture.

  45. krerko says:

    “the catholic church force native Americans to convert and the they destroyed their societies.”

    That is the single most incorrect, made up BS here yet. Can’t let it stand uncontested. Christians of various denominations but not “the Catholic Church specifically.”

    When is William going to finish with his freaking birthday? I can hardly stand the anticipation for the browbeating he claims I am going to get. Hoenstly, I really am not looking forward to seeing the worst side of people in this manner.

  46. krerko says:

    Can’t we talk about something wonderful like Texas making a law allowing guns on campuses! Even Pierre probably loves this wonderful news. (Hopefully you know I am kidding).

  47. William says:

    Kevin,

    Don’t quite know why I should waste my time arguing with a closed mind, but I said I would get back to you so here I am.

    I really don’t care what you think of me. You don’t feed me, and you don’t fuck me, so in the grand scheme of things, to me, you’re just a pissant with a computer. And a profoundly deluded worldview.

    I really don’t care if you get your “information” from Fux Noise, where you’re told what to think and how to think it. In fact, it fits perfectly with your bible-thumping indoctrination. Been there, glad to have escaped to the real world. Willful ignorance is not an attribute, as if you could tell the difference. You swallow the lies of charlatans and snake-oil salesmen, but I’m crazy? Fuck You! You’re told you must hate union members by, wait for it……., union members. That’s right Kev, the pied pipers of the radical right and the teabirchers, Beck, Hannity, O’Reiley, are members of AFTRA, an AFL-CIO affiliate. Not that facts matter to you, as your stock in trade appears to be running around with your fingers in your ears shouting “I can’t hear you”.

    And that bigotry and exclusion thing? Not your problem, because you seem to conveniently forget that every one of those LGBT heathens you wish to relegate to 5th class citizens all have a mother and a father, and family, and people who love them. What if one of my grandchildren grows up to be one of “them”, should I love them less? Should I set their achievements aside and qualify every reference with a resounding “but”? And have you forgotten that every last one of “them” is another of God’s children? What if, God forbid, your daughter turns out to be one of “them”? And what sort of dilemma will that cause your timid, lying morality? Fuck You!

    And let’s talk about that morality. You and your ilk will fight tooth and nail for the rights of the unborn. Sanctity of life, right? How about after they’re born? Not so much then, because at that point they inherit the sins of their parents, and are generally the targets of the Reich-wing noise machine if they have shown the poor judgment to pick the wrong womb. You know, poor people. People who’ve lost their homes. Single mothers. Anybody who requires some form of assistance. Where’s your precious fucking morality then? And where is the sanctity of life argument when you slobbering morons allow them to be sent to die in foreign lands, for the sake of pointless wars of naked aggression? As long as it’s someone else’s kid fighting and dying, well, that’s just someone else’s problem, right? Fuck You!

    And you dare preach about your loving, giving religion? Would that be the same religion that won’t be happy until every last Muslim on the planet is taking a dirtnap? And where does it go from there? Who’s next? I’ve heard some of the sermons, and the rhetoric would make many a radical Imam green with envy. How very fucking loving. Unless you’re black, or brown, or an immigrant, or gay. Funny, but never once when I was in the church did I hear anything attributable to Jesus, where he said “all are welcome, except for the faggots or the niggers or the cunts”. He would have likely invited them in BECAUSE of their differences. Remember sayings like “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? How about “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”? Ring a bell? Probably not, because that would inevitably expose you faux Christians as being completely unlike Christ. Fuck You!

    Speaking of Jesus Christ, as he was dying on the cross he said “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” And you’d better pray that God was listening, and that he is a forgiving God. Because one thing is absolutely certain. One day, each and every one of us will stand in judgment, and that will be a very bad time for you to find out what “offense to God” really means. And on that day we shall meet. When you find your ship of fools sailing in the wrong direction, when the stunned and confused heard of cattle you are is ushered to the lake of fire, I’ll be the one holding the door, laughing.

    Don’t bother responding. I’m not interested in what you have to say, and I will never, ever make an apology for my positions. Have a wonderful life, I wish you all the happiness your conscience will allow. Maybe one day you’ll learn who your true enemies are. They are the ones very successfully utilizing the “divide and conquer” strategy, and I sincerely hope that that moment of realization is not too painful for you.

  48. Angie says:

    91 LX- God created us yes but He also gives us this thing called free will, we have a choice to follow him or not, to live in sin or live free. And yes God does love all, as we are to do so too! But God Does hate sin and that’s the ONLY hate that’s been mentioned here. LOVE the people Hate the SIN!

    Val Jaffe- you might wanna go and read the Bible cause everything you stated is wrong!
    Adam and Eve- yes and had children
    God created Jesus and used Mary as a willing vessel, but her and Joseph did get married and Jesus does have brothers and sisters. And the rest of your comment well….ignorant!

  49. Angie says:

    Roy – we DO need to stand. Good post!

  50. NortonSmitty says:

    Kevin, I sincerely think your losing it brother.

  51. Angie says:

    Ah, William now I understand more of your posts and wording and such animosity towards some people, you are a backslider, and since you “were once in the church as you say” you know that’s worse than for someone who never knew God. I pray your eyes are opened!

  52. William says:

    Angie,

    Bless you hon. You’re probably a sweet girl. But quit trying to bring me back into the fold. Not gonna happen.

  53. William says:

    Preacher man talkin’ on the teevee
    Puttin’ down Rock and Roll
    Wants me to send a donation
    ’cause he’s worried about my soul
    Well Jesus walked on water
    And I believe that’s true
    But sometimes I think that ol’ preacher man
    Wants to do a little walkin’ too

    Well I don’t ask nobody for nothin’
    If I can’t get it on my own
    If you don’t like the way I’m livin’
    You just leave this long-haired country boy alone

    -Charlie Daniels-

  54. NortonSmitty says:

    OK, Who turned over that rock? RoyBoy, just who put you in charge of deciding what offends God? I don’t have a clue, but I know every time you open your self-righteous mouth, it offends me.

  55. krerko says:

    “I really don’t care if you get your “information” from Fux Noise, where you’re told what to think and how to think it. In fact, it fits perfectly with your bible-thumping indoctrination. Been there, glad to have escaped to the real world. Willful ignorance is not an attribute, as if you could tell the difference. You swallow the lies of charlatans and snake-oil salesmen, but I’m crazy? Fuck You! You’re told you must hate union members by, wait for it……., union members. That’s right Kev, the pied pipers of the radical right and the teabirchers, Beck, Hannity, O’Reiley, are members of AFTRA, an AFL-CIO affiliate. Not that facts matter to you, as your stock in trade appears to be running around with your fingers in your ears shouting “I can’t hear you”.”

    This paragraph just supports further you are a simple idiot, underseducated and lacking critical thinking skills. Your enitre paragraph is nothing more than assumptions and accusitory bloviations. I/we rarely watch TV (except for netflix and blue ray movies) because I am so busy working on some challenging academic stuff. My comments are nto about the demonization of all unions and their members but spoke specifically to specific issues.

    I’m not like I use to be years ago when I first came across Pierre and his website Candide’s Notebooks where I would launch off adn attack every person of your mindset so its fine with me if you wish to speak and write as you do. To me, my issues are clarified with a few facts to back them up and they should make sense to reasonable, intellectually honest people. This is why they don’t work with you or Norton, whom has yet to be specific about anything with a quote or anything for that matter, to back up the vitriolic and ignorant personal insults he makes at me. In the end, I was formerly a very bad dude whom most people wouldn’t want to fuck with on any given day so I don’t get hurt when ridiculous clowns insult and ridicule me as some of you do. Instead I choose to show the pen and analytical thinking is more powerful than the sword. However sometimes its a shame people can’t be held liable for the checks their big fat mouths write that their body’s can’t cash.

    For me its time to end the playing and get back to work.

  56. krerko (also Kevin) says:

    William:

    Good God, I really am blown away by the manic and completely iilligitimate points you try to brand me with. It seems you have a lot of hatred in you my friend (sorry if the term offends) when it comes to decent people who think differently then you on important issues. I am confident I would rape you verbally my friend in a debate on the issues but with the keyboard blocking me me from being articulate in printed form, I have to let what you say rest as the final comments on the matter.

  57. Kevin says:

    Comments of a madman…

    “And you dare preach about your loving, giving religion? Would that be the same religion that won’t be happy until every last Muslim on the planet is taking a dirtnap? And where does it go from there? Who’s next? I’ve heard some of the sermons, and the rhetoric would make many a radical Imam green with envy. How very fucking loving. Unless you’re black, or brown, or an immigrant, or gay. Funny, but never once when I was in the church did I hear anything attributable to Jesus, where he said “all are welcome, except for the faggots or the niggers or the cunts”. He would have likely invited them in BECAUSE of their differences. Remember sayings like “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? How about “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”? Ring a bell? Probably not, because that would inevitably expose you faux Christians as being completely unlike Christ. Fuck You!”

    You live in a strange environment and world according to your comments.

  58. kevin says:

    I just saw that my name is showing as krerko…it is me kevin. I don’t know how the other name is in the field…maybe the moderator can fix it? Will you do that for me sir or madame please?

  59. 91LX says:

    Angie: You do understand that being gay is not a choice, right? Its not about free will. You are who you are. Other things are. Such as lieing, stealing, raping, killing. That is all free will stuff and those are sins in my book.

  60. NortonSmitty says:

    Kevin, your wasting your time pursuing the Pharmaceutical degree unless you have some hidden hobby where that might come in handy. You are missing a real opportunity, a true calling. With the unmatched passive/aggressive talent you display on these pages, you could teach the world how to whine about how you are being unfairly and brutally attacked by ignoramuses, and all the while you are slipping a shiv between their own unsuspecting ribs. Distracting from their stupid arguments by
    griping and screaming to anybody listening about the unjust vitriol of your intellectual enemies who have that dangerously different point of view. And the best thing, in your own mind you are as innocent as the driven slush.

    Gotta’ be a market for training other sick bastards that kinda’ split-brained shit, Professor!

  61. William says:

    There is NS, it’s called the Glenn Beck University, or some shit like that. Wonder how it’s looking on the Dow. It’s backed by Gold, you know.

  62. And if the righteous and heaven bound are exemplified by Roy Ostapkos of the world, I’d only wish the distances between any of our segregated little places, whether here or in whatever iteration of the next life one believes. I wonder if lord Jesus ever had a problem with assholes per se, the ones that have no freaking line of what is and isn’t decent… Off to wash the scum off…

  63. kevin says:

    NS: still another useless comment without anything of merit to add, just the same old ad hominem comments. Your attempt to define my comments as that of someone exhibiting passive/agressive behavior is off course and makes you look silly dealing in concepts you don’t understand well. More delusions of you fancying yourself as something you’re not. Just keep to the issue boy:o)

  64. NortonSmitty says:

    Kevin, trying to pin you down on an issue is an exercise in futility. This isn’t even fun anymore, like having a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Just go fuck yourself asshole.

  65. Angie says:

    91LX it is a sin it is a choice too! And you can be freed from it just ask those who have been who turned their life around and got freed from that bondage.
    Refer to the verse from the Bible, it is a SIN!

  66. Val Jaffee says:

    To Anjie
    ‘Val Jaffe- you might wanna go and read the Bible cause everything you stated is wrong!
    Adam and Eve- yes and had children
    God created Jesus and used Mary as a willing vessel, but her and Joseph did get married and Jesus does have brothers and sisters. And the rest of your comment well….ignorant!’

    Yes Anjie- Jesus does have brothers ‘stepbrothers’ – remember Joseph had children from his previous marriage. But Mary and Joseph had no children together. This from MY catholic bible. You can say that I choose to believe what Moses, Jerimaha, Isaiah, Paul and all the others who have said it throughout the bible, “The lying pens of scribes will distort the scripture”, “The lying pens of scribes will distort the scripture” , “The lying pens of scribes will distrot the scripture”

    I guess when a person has read the bible and come across these sayings over and over and over . . . . Then that person has a god given right to believe it and seek out the truth.

    You know, now that we have the INTERNET, you are free to research the vast knowledge of information that is out there. Here are a few book suggestions that I have in my collection that were most helpful to me. Along with the internet, of course;

    A History of God – Karen Armstrong
    The Westminister Guide to the Books of the Bible – William Ramsay
    The Nag Hammadi Library – James M Robinson
    The Gospel of Judas – Rodolphe Kasser, Marvin Meyer, Gregory Wurst
    The Handy Religion Answer Book – John Renard
    The Bible
    The Koran

    Happy reading!

  67. William says:

    Angie,

    Do you have any real-life experiences, or is it just an amalgam of chapter and verse?

    Just wondering

  68. NortonSmitty says:

    Angie Darlin’, It’s a sin to wast your God given time listening to sanctimonious, strutting brainless church-lady wannabe’s that are certain of their own superior righteousness. Even if the asshole on TV with the $500 hairdo and Nehru suit they send half their social-security check to says so. And not anyone actually enjoying their life is evil. So mind your own business, and let God mind his by doing his will to all.

    The only biblical verse of warning I follow is the one that says “It is a Sin to spill your Seed”. That’s why I always use a cup.

  69. Angie says:

    Val Jaffee-
    The book to go by is the Holy Bible, Catholics write their own version.

    William- of course I have life experiences that’s why I’m never at the mercy of a man with an argument, I have had an experience, I pray you have one too!

    Norton- the seed has been planted whether you realize it or not, it’s planted! Now I just pray it will grow!

  70. Val Jaffee says:

    Angie – your ‘Holy Bible’ is a spin off / modernization of the catholic bible. Be it the King James, New King James, NIV, etc, etc.

    Isaiah 10:1

    “Woe to those who make unjust laws, and to those who issue oppressive decrees”

    Jeremiah 1:5

    “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart”

    According to scripture then – My fate was was sealed before I was even born, hence I am destine to be a non believer. Thank you God!

  71. LivingInReality says:

    I think everybody is missing the point here. There are a lot of weddings that the church doesn’t recognize but legal it giver rights to the partners in the relationship. If we just follow church rules for our laws I wouldn’t have any right to visit my wife while she is in the hospital or make decisions for her if something happens to her. By law she is entitled to benefits when I die. Thats all that any couple wants, there was a time in this country that didn’t recognize interracial marriages. And Angie, someone who is homosexual has about as much choice in it as you did being female, or as much choice some one has in being black or white.

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