For the third time in 11 years, the Palm Coast City Council is exploring the imposition of a new, 6 percent tax on all electricity bills by way of a so-called “franchise fee” that would be levied on Florida Power and Light and passed down to customers.
Mayor David Alfin and Council member Theresa Pontieri see the new tax (or fee) not as additional revenue, but as a way to lower the property tax–a tactic other cities adopt when seeking to pass the tax. But as in Flagler Beach and Bunnell–both of which have had the tax for years, the money soon becomes part of the revenue furniture and does not have a lasting effect on the property tax: both Flagler Beach and Bunnell have significantly higher tax rates than does Palm Coast.
When the council considered the fee in 2011, it made the same argument–that it would be a way to reduce the property tax rate, not to increase revenue. Residents did not buy it, forcing the council to reverse course.
The proposal today generated sharp, divergent responses from council members.
“This is nothing but a tax increase,” Council member Ed Danko said. “And our citizens have been beaten up enough with the price of gasoline, the price of food, the price of everything. I just want to make it clear. I will not vote for either or any of this. It’s a tax increase.”
“I’m just asking for more consideration instead of the obtuse view that ‘this is a tax and so I’m not going to vote for it,'” Pontieri said. Both she and Danko were willing to talk about budget cuts.
All but 12 percent of cities in the state either have a franchise fee or a utility tax, which is similar, or both. Twice in the past eleven years Palm Coast considered adopting one or both fees. Twice the public rejected the proposals.
The council in June asked its administration to bring forth an analysis on possibly adopting an electric franchise fee. The request at the time was prompted not by a wish to change the city’s tax and revenue structure, but by a sobering report on how expensive the paving-maintenance needs of the city are getting: $52 million over five years. The city doesn’t have the money. Unwilling to raise the property tax rate, it needs a new source of revenue.
Two untapped sources of tax revenue at the city’s disposal are the electric franchise fee and the public service or utility tax. Both can be tapped. One could be added to power bills, the other to water bills. The public service tax can be up to 10 percent of a utility bill. But today’s presentation focused only on the franchise fee.
In Florida, 88 percent of cities have either a franchise fee, a utility ta or both (35 percent have both), so just 12 percent have neither. Palm Coast is in that latter class.
Florida Power and Light has franchise fee agreements with 195 cities, including Bunnel, Flagler Beach and Ormond Beach. Flagler Beach, for example, generates upwards of $300,000 a year from its franchise fee–and more than $700,000 from its utility service tax. Bunnell generates $300,000 from its franchise fee and $526,000 from its utility tax.
How is imposing both not double taxation? The answer goes back to a 47-year-old bit of legal prestidigitation by the Florida Supreme Court. A trial court had, in fact, ruled that the franchise fee was an impermissible tax based on a percentage of gross receipts, “an amount which bore no relation to the cost of regulation,” the high court summarized in a 1994 decision, while local governments had “no evidence showing that the fees were based upon a reasonable rental value for the utilities’ use of the counties’ rights-of-way.”
But the court didn’t buy those arguments. It relied on the 1976 precedent, when the court ruled that “[W]e have absolutely no difficulty in holding that the franchise fees payable by [a utility] are not ‘taxes’. The cities would lack authority to impose taxes of this type [under the Constitution] and, unlike other governmental levies, the charges here are bargained for in exchange for specific property rights relinquished by the cities.”
It wasn’t clear then, and it isn’t clear now, how cities lacked the authority to impose precisely what the court now allowed them to impose, but through a different definition. As far as customers are concerned, the fee is indistinguishable from a tax levied on their bill’s gross total. But local governments are grateful for the legal cover to call it a fee and evade the accusation of a hidden tax increase–or another shift from burdening the property tax. (Legal sophistry aside, the terms fee and tax are used interchangeably in this article.)
The franchise fee would tax Florida Power and Light up to 6 percent for using the city’s rights of way. It would be levied every month.
FPL would then automatically pass the cost to customers through a 6 percent fee on each individual bill. So for a household with a $200 monthly electric bill, the fee would be $12, or $144 a year. It would do nothing to improve electric service. But it would presumably be used by the city to sustain or improve public services.
For Palm Coast, a 6 percent fee (or, in effect, tax) would generate $5.7 million annually, rising in proportion to the city’s growth in electric customers. Use of the revenue would be entirely up to the council.
Alves said the fee would be imposed uniformly, with no difference between homesteaded taxpayers and non-homesteaded taxpayers. So shifting away from the property tax would in effect result in a greater burden for the homesteaded. Homesteaded property owners have hardly seen a property tax increase in the last many years (in inflation-adjusted dollars, many homesteaded property owners are paying less in property taxes today than they were 10 years ago).
The franchise agreement would stretch for up to 30 years, so once it’s in place, it would not have to reappear before the council for approval for that long. On the other hand, the draft agreement already prepared by the city gives it the authority to revisit the agreement’s percentage: it would not have to be set at 6 percent year after year. It could be lowered, or lowered and raised over the years–but not beyond 6 percent, unless the Legislature changes that threshold.
“It is incumbent upon us to diversify our revenues. We know that 92 percent of our General Fund monies come from ad valorem,” City Council member Theresa Pontieri said. “And that is a very dangerous place to be. I think those of us who are people who have been here for 20 years know what that feels like when property values drop.”
Pontieri’s figures are off. Property taxes account for only 60 percent of the general fund (and In 2021, the last year for which complete figures are available, property taxes generated $26.3 million in a general fund of $43.7 million. The 2023 adopted budget projected property tax revenue of $33.9 million in a general revenue of $52.7 million, a 64 percent share.
Just as significantly: the general fund accounts for just 14 percent of all city revenue, which includes the city’s water and sewer utility (which generates almost twice as much money than property taxes do), impact fees, garbage fees, stormwater management fees, debt proceeds and the communications service tax ($2.6 million), which is similar to the franchise fee or the utility tax, but on communications. Still, essential services such as fire, police, streets and parks and recreation are all paid out of the general fund.
Both Pontieri and Mayor David Alfin were also inaccurate when Alfin said that replacing a portion of the property tax revenue with franchise fee revenue “would have more flexibility with these dollars than we might have with the dollars we’re bringing in traditionally.” General fund revenue is exactly that: general. In fact, franchise fee revenue would go into the general fund and would be indistinguishable from property tax revenue in that pot, for the city to spend as it wishes.
Still, Alfin persisted in the misleading claim that trading in property ta revenue for franchise fee revenue would “buy flexibility with what you can spend the dollars on.”
Pontieri would see the franchise fee as a way to reduce the property tax through rollback. “And because we’re unrestricted, we could diversify our revenue, still pay for pavement management and also the increase in the sheriff’s contract with these monies as well.”
This year if the city were to adopt the rollback property tax rate rate, as opposed to sticking with the current rate, it would loose $2.8 million, leaving about that much for the streets program. Alves cautioned, however: franchise fee revenue will not grow in the same proportions as would property tax revenue. ” So long. term, it’s not apples to apples,” Alves said.
Residents would also not see anywhere near an equal reduction from their Palm Coast property taxes to the sort of franchise fee they would pay, since it would require a more significant property tax reduction than merely going back to roll-back to realize what would average out to a $144 hit on the utility bill.
On the other hand, the franchise approach would also begin to capture some revenue for the city from users of electric vehicles. “You can call a tax, you can call whatever you want,” Pontieri said, “it diversifies our revenues, but it’s also a way to get money from EV charging and it’s a way that we can then grant the roll back we’ve all been talking about and still generate income.”
Pontieri’s proposal is not without an ideological context. It has been a long-term, if so far largely unattained, goal in some hard-right circles to eliminate the property tax–an effort fitfully under way in Texas this year. But Palm Coast’s historic approach toward the property tax, keeping it as low as possible and shifting away from it whenever possible through user fees and other sources of revenue, reflects the larger goal, if still from a distance. Today’s discussion narrowed that distance further.
Even Jon Netts, the late mayor and council member, favored getting away from the property tax for the same reasons Pontieri spoke today. “One ‘advantage’ of a Public Service Tax is to ‘diversify’ the revenue stream,” Netts had said in a 2018 interview, but also added: “Since the voters strongly opposed the imposition of such a tax, the idea was dropped by City Council. The voters clearly spoke. Unless there is a change in their position, I will not support the creation of a Public Service Tax.”
Danko cautioned the council that the public would be angry again if the council proposed the franchise fee. “This place was packed with angry residents,” he said, asking Councilmember Nick Klufas if he recalled it. Klufas didn’t. “I don’t think we actually brought this to a vote,” he said.
Not entirely accurate: the angry residents had turned out in 2011, and again in 2018. Council members sensed it quickly in 2018, and voted unanimously (with Klufas’s vote) to table the matter indefinitely.
coyote says
“I’m just asking for more consideration instead of the obtuse view that ‘this is a tax and so I’m not going to vote for it,’” Pontieri said. Both she and Danko were willing to talk about budget cuts.
How about you do the budget cuts FIRST, THEN talk about how much more (if any) monies are needed.
Bottom Line – I am feeling very ‘obtuse’ (to use Pontieri’s misguided description – one of many) so my answer is a resounding NO. No. No.
I have to live within my means, I don’t get to raise my income whenever I want to – why shouldn’t the city do the same?
Tina olive says
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!
JustBeNice says
I agree with you 100%!
Asa Greear says
no more taxes vote them out.
Laurel says
See folks? See how more people, businesses, residents help pick up the tab for you? “Westward Ho!” says Alfin. You can thank the Chamber of Commerce, the Tourist Board and your commissioners.
Brian says
Growth does not pay for itself.
Laurel says
Brian: I was sarcastic. I’ve been posting here, a long time now, about how local politicians, Chamber of Commerce, Tourist Board and realtors always claim that we need more and more and more. We need more jobs, more tourists, more businesses, more growth, more development and more people, and how it helps us. I’m from South Florida, and I’ve heard it all my life, and seen the results: They lie. We pay. They profit personally.
John Q Public says
WTF? Maybe they should have made a hefty impact fee for new construction? Would have been much better than effing over current residents.
Joe says
Bingo!!!
Cog’s says
Agree & that would definitely make more sense. There are to many senior citizens on a fixed income that lived here for many years Will Not be able to afford any more taxes as it is. It’s gotta stop.
Dennis C Rathsam says
When I thought it couldnt get any worse here in Palm Coast, the city that has no ideas, no plan to atract new tax revenue except to screw the homeowners. Every one of thier hare brained ideas is aimed at us. Houses, & Storage units will not bring in the tax dollars the city needs. We need some industry. Why are the tax payers taking the hits for these ignorant fools? How many signatures do we need to get a recall?
DMFinFlorida says
I never thought I’d see the day when I agreed with a comment from Dennis. Mark the calendar! Then tell the City Council to stick their proposal !!!
Deborah Coffey says
When you vote for Republican rule, you get it. You get the Great Republican Depression of 1929 and the Great Republican Recession of 2008 and so many more in between. It’s beyond belief that people keep voting against their own best interests. Talk about a crowd that wants “something for nothing.” How many red states are on the government dole (our money) because they’re scared to death to have their people pay taxes for the things they need? We need more, and better, roads here. Did we need a pedestrian bridge crossing SR 100, even though much of it was paid for with federal funding? At 74, I’ve learned a life lesson…never trust a Republican with your money…never.
Tina olive says
I believe it’s Don’t trust a POLITICIAN with your money or anything else….it’s not one sided….both sides are out for one thing and it’s NOT the tax payers……
Ed says
Ms Coffey,
The root cause of the the 2008 economic down turn was excessive mortgage lending to borrowers who normally would not qualify for a home loan. The Glass-Steagall act was repealed by the Clinton Administration and set up the disaster.
A state’s economic health and political affiliation may reflect economic factors beyond those explained by any political philosophy. It rather complicated. Not entirely a partisan issue.
Finally, you are correct in your final statement, because you should not trust anyone with your money, neither republican nor democrat.
Ray W. says
I am not saying I disagree with Ed’s comment about Clinton, in 1999, signing legislation that replaced the Glass-Steagall Act with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, otherwise known as the Financial Services Modernization Act. Ed’s comment would carry more weight if he included the fact that both the federal House and Senate were under Republican control when both Houses passed the Act. The Senate voted 54-46 for passage. The House? 343-86. In light of this additional information, placing the root cause of the financial downturn on Clinton is not completely accurate. Are both of our political parties responsible at least in part for the root cause of the W recession?
Importantly, there was a clause in the new Act that had not yet been interpreted by the time W took office. Mortgage lenders interpreted the new language in a way that would allow them to provide new and novel mortgage products to home buyers. Initially, one of the new mortgage products was submitted to the appropriate administrative agency for review and possible approval. In time, the W administration ultimately approved the novel mortgage product; it soon entered the mortgage marketplace. Then, a second novel mortgage product was submitted for review and possible approval. In time, it too received administrative approval and began to be sold. Finally, commercial mortgage lenders submitted a third mortgage product for review and possible approval. This one involved a five-year balloon commercial mortgage product, with interest and insurance payments only. This, too, received administrative approval and widespread acceptance in the commercial mortgage marketplace.
All three mortgage products ultimately were deemed to be structurally defective. The defect in the five-year balloon commercial mortgage product was the assumption that commercial properties would always increase in value over the five-year term. When the commercial market collapsed prior to the balloon period, the holders of the mortgages could not pay off the balloon amount. The dollar amounts involved in the commercial mortgage marketplace was in the trillions. Lax banking oversight and false investment ratings by so-called independent ratings companies led to far too many poor-quality mortgages being issued. Then, the poor-quality mortgages were packaged together and sold in a specialized marketplace, and then repackaged and sold again and again without adequate knowledge of the actual value of the mortgages that comprised the packages.
For all I know, had mortgage lenders approached the appropriate Clinton administrative agency with any of the three defective mortgage products, approval might have been granted by a Democratic administration, too. We will never know. The only thing that can be proven is that W’s administration interpreted the statutory language in a way that allowed approval of the novel mortgage products and millions of Americans paid the price for that interpretation.
An argument can be made that Deborah Coffey, while not completely right in her assertion, is significantly more correct in that assertion than you are in yours. Again, I am not arguing that you are wrong, just far less right than you could easily be. In the sphere of argumentation, two parties to a dispute can both be right, but one can be less right than the other. For example, in the civil law field, if one party provides evidence sufficient to surpass 50% of the overall evidence threshold and the other party provides evidence that achieves a 49% level, then the threshold achieving party wins and the other loses. Not because the losing party was wrong, but because it was just not right enough.
No president ever signs an act of Congress without Congress having some complicity in that act. Asserting that Clinton was the root cause of a recession that occurred many years after that president left office strains credulity.
It seems to me that an assessment of the actual root causes of the W recession include a Republican-controlled Congress in 1999, a Democratically controlled White House in 1999, a number of mortgage lenders who later saw a chance to make money with new and novel mortgage products, an administrative agency that approved the new and novel mortgage products, ratings companies that falsely overvalued mortgage packages in a niche resale market, and lax banking oversight during a significant part of the 2000’s. If, in the world of argumentation, a good argument must give way to a better argument, can it be argued that it was a perfect storm of independent actors combining as the root cause that brought down an otherwise healthy economy, and not just one actor?
Ed says
Are you really retired Congressman Barney Frank, because you mirror and I mean mirror his assessment of the situation…
Mischa Gee says
You’re all so wonderful in espousing your interpretation of which party was to blame for which recession, I just had to add my two cents.
Getting rid of Glass-Steagall and replacing it with a bill full of loopholes was a bad idea, regardless of who came up with it. The new act should be gone and Glass reinstated.
That being said, a lot of time is being wasted blaming parties instead of focusing on the issue of a 6% fee possibly being added in lieu of raising impact fees and property taxes.
I believe property taxes have jumped incredibly with the reassessment of home values over these past two years.
Home values are over the top and the taxes match. A neighbor of mine who purchased their home at the end of 2021 for a whopping $350,000, saw the tax assessment raise the value to $400,000 less than two months after closing. Their taxes, because they filed late for a homestead break, were $7000 in 2022 and are estimated to be around $6500 in 2023.
My brother in NJ who owns an acre of land, with a huge home and 30’×15′ built in pool pays about $7000/year, in a state where earnings are much higher than Florida and especially Palm Coast.
If we don’t get the runaway spending in this city and county under control, people will flee in large numbers, property values will drop back down and the city will become insolvent. We can’t afford a fluctuating 6% fee on our electric bills, in place of a property tax increase. Impact fees should be raised, due to the impact new construction is having on the city. Certain projects, like building a new library when our current one has empty shelves and plenty of space are not warranted.
If we are to keep our city affordable people need to vote out the spenders and vote in responsible replacements. We also need to write letters and make phone calls to these Representatives and make our voices heard with a resounding NO to this proposal.
Ray W. says
Sorry, you lose again. You know who I am.
I simply follow certain issues and assess the value of the various arguments and come to my own conclusions. I read a significant amount of literature on the causes of the Great Recession. I remember the conclusions I reached way back when. If I independently came to the same conclusion as that offered by Mr. Frank, that is nothing more than a coincidence. I don’t recall ever hearing of or reading about his explanation of the causes, though it strikes me that he was correct in his assessment.
As an aside, if you knew of Frank’s explanation when you posted your comment, you committed a serious intellectual error. Knowing something and then attempting to mislead others by ignoring what you know is just wrong. Why would you do something like that?
I did spend several hours in a coffee shop in Greensboro, NC, discussing the mortgage issue with a number of relatives after a wedding of one of my cousins at a time early in the recession. One of the relatives was a member of the U.S. House of Representatives at that time. We were both reading Ron Chernow’s biography of Alexander Hamilton, written from an economic perspective and published in 2005. The discussion shifted from Hamilton to the issues behind a looming recession.
As I recall, I argued that we had been building approximately 5 million new homes per year for over five years, which was a record amount. My position was that if we were adding approximately 3 million people to our population per year, we needed only just over one million new homes per year to house the new Americans. If the average home lasts 75 years before becoming uninhabitable, then another 1.5 million new homes were needed each year to replace the homes that became obsolete. Building almost 30 million new homes in around six years when we needed only roughly 15 million, to me, was a recipe for problems, supply and demand being what it is, though I concede that I was late in coming to that assessment. I never predicted a coming recession. I simply began to see the signs after the recession began building to its most devastating effect. Sure enough, articles soon began to appear listing the number of excess new home inventories at over 10 million. We simply had to work through that excess before new home construction could begin to rebound.
One unresolved issue from that recession among economists is whether the stimulus package known as the TARP Act was large enough. Some economists continue to argue that the stimulus package should have been much larger; they think that the economy would have fully returned to normal one or two years sooner than it actually did if the stimulus package had been significantly larger. These economists may have carried the day in the pandemic-caused recession of 2020. Both administrations signed into law various stimulus packages totaling some $6 trillion. $2.9 trillion under Trump and roughly $3 trillion under Biden. Roughly $4 trillion has been distributed. This may explain why America has not yet entered into a recession, though much more study is needed as to why we continue to add jobs at an unprecedented rate, why we have record low levels of people applying for unemployment insurance, why so few people who are laid off actually apply for unemployment insurance, why so many open jobs continue to be posted (still over 10 million posted job openings with near record low numbers of unemployed Americans), and on and on. Standard economic theory posits that when we reach a full employment number (below a 4% unemployment rate), rising pressures on wages leads to inflation. Standard economic theory posits that when an economy rapidly cools from a shock, and an economic stimulus package is activated, the artificially heated economy will lead to inflationary pressures, which will lead to job layoffs and a recession. But, even with some $4 trillion in stimulus money pumped into the economy, we are not yet in a recession and inflation is dropping at a steady pace. We have never tried to utilize such a large amount of stimulus money, yet it seems to be working. Are we rapidly returning to a fully healthy economy? Time will tell.
Had you exercised a greater level of intellectual rigor in your original comment, I would never have responded to your limited and partially accurate yet misleading post. A good argument must give way to a better argument. If you knew what you posted was less than completely accurate, please stop attempting to mislead FlaglerLive readers.
Mischa Gee says
You geniuses having to prove to one another just how bright you think you are in your understanding of recessions, have totally list the narrative thread. This article is not about how brilliant you think you are, but about a possible 6% tax (fee) being added to your fluctuating monthly electric bill, because the city scammers, er, elected officials don’t want to increase our property taxes or impact fees, because they know we are overburdened by their runaway spending. Why don’t you impress us with your opinions about how to stop this nonsense, instead of showing us what a bunch of blowhards you are.
Joe says
Record Gasoline prices hitting over $4 a gallon in July 2008 was a huge factor in the recession. People cut back on driving and spending money at businesses. They stopped buying new cars, which hurt thousands of dealerships, financial institutions and car manufacturers.
Is States with counties that have personal property tax on cars the jurisdictions took a large cut back on revenue and had to lay off people. In one County in Virginia they had to lay off over 50 people, because of the loss of car tax revenue. All those factors started a chain reaction.
DaleL says
The Great Depression of 1929 was caused by a number of factors, not by President Hoover’s policies. Hoover has been scapegoated by Democrats. Hoover instituted numerous interventions unprecedented in American history. “Economic conditions improved in early 1931 until a series of bank collapses in Europe sent new shockwaves through the American economy, leading to additional lay-offs.” Hoover certainly was not responsible for the European bank collapses. https://hoover.archives.gov/exhibits/great-depression
Although Hoover was not the cause of the 1929 crash and Great Depression, you are correct that the U.S. economy has preformed worse on average when the President is a Republican. “The U.S. economy has performed better when the President of the United States is a Democrat rather than a Republican, almost regardless of how one measures performance. For many measures, including real GDP growth (on which we concentrate), the performance gap is both large and statistically significant,…” https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Presidents-and-the-Economy-%3A-A-Forensic-Blinder/1502ce496333aec86c96f449f93e5d2e27c9957f
On average, with a Republican in the White House, the economy’s has averaged just 2.54%. With a Democrat in office, growth averaged 4.35%. This is according to the 2013 research paper by professors of economics Alan Blinder and Mark Watson at Princeton University.
However, I don’t know how much this applies to local city economics.
Ed says
Dale L is correct with his comments, however some economists believe there is a reason why the Democratic administrations appear to economically out perform the Republicans. Also a split government will normally out perform a straight party alignment.
The Republican economic policies that improves GDP takes a period of time to stimulate the economy and the lag comes up to speed during the party change when Dems are in power. Progressive policies are not aligned with capitalism and economic growth, they are more along the lines of socialism. And Margret Thatcher said it best, “the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of someone else’s money.”
Laurel says
Ed: I don’t disagree with your comment about Democrats, but the fact of the matter is FDR brought our country out of the Great Depression. That was not about lag time.
Pogo says
@And she was dearly missed
https://www.google.com/search?q=brits+cheer+news+of+thatcher+death
And in this century, her ilk, have certainly been what?
I’ll go with a numerous failed succession.
The wealthy are weathering Conservative Party “success” as they always do — well insulated and from as great a distance as possible; just like their brethren everywhere else do.
Oh Maggie… Ed misses you
Ray W. says
Good point, Joe. Thank you. A significant portion of TARP Act funds were disbursed to automakers to save them from bankruptcy. As it turned out, the vast majority of the disbursed funds were repaid by the automakers once they returned to profitability.
As I recall, speculators artificially drove up crude oil prices by taking advantage of a widely held belief that the world had reached peak oil production. As it turned out, the fracking era was in its early stages and the world was nowhere near peak oil production.
Ray W. says
Looks like it’s time to resort to Winston Churchill again:
“Liberalism has its own history and its own tradition. Socialism has its own formulas and aims. Socialism seeks to pull down wealth; Liberalism seeks to raise up poverty. Socialism would destroy private interests; Liberalism would preserve private interests in the only way in which they can be safely and justly preserved, namely, by reconciling them with public right. Socialism would kill enterprise; Liberalism would rescue enterprise from the trammels of privilege and preference. Socialism assails the pre-eminence of the individual; Liberalism seeks, and shall seek more in the future, to build up a minimum standard for the mass. Socialism exalts the rule. Liberalism exalts the man. Socialism attacks capital; Liberalism attacks monopoly.”
I take the position that if socialism means that a centralized economy controls the means of production (recall the British government nationalizing its domestic auto industry to disastrous effect prior to the Thatcher administration) and if communism means that a centralized economy controls production, distribution, and pricing of all goods and services, then the Democratic Party has never espoused either socialism or communism as a party platform. In my lifetime, the closest we have ever come to communism was when President Nixon signed an executive order freezing prices and wages. The closest we have ever come to socialism was when TARP Act funds were distributed, and GM would get its share only if government overseers could be appointed to its board of directors. Otherwise, it has simply been decades of capitalism in whatever form that capitalism needs to take to implement the policies of each new administration.
As an aside, when you argue that Republican policies take time to reach full effect, are you saying that the recession that occurred during the middle part of H.W.’s term was caused by Reagan’s policies? After all, it is hard to argue that Carter’s policies carried an effect through the eight years of Reagan and the first two years of H.W. And are you arguing that W’s eight years of policies that partially contributed to the Great Recession carried over into Obama’s eight years in office, with the last seven years under Obama seeing an unprecedented run of positive economic growth (yes, roughly 84 straight months of growing GDP, which stands as the American record for all time)? Just how does the greatest plummet in economic growth since the Great Depression lead to Obama’s string of successes?
I do agree that H.W. signing a tax increase into law led to a more balanced economy, which contributed in no small part to the dramatic economic growth that occurred during Clinton’s eight years in office.
I already know you have argued that Clinton signing into law in 1999 a new act replacing the Glass-Steagall Act was the root cause of the Great Recession some seven years later, which we both know is a less than accurate claim.
I am forming the impression that you just type things that sound good to you, regardless of the accuracy of the comment. As my mother used to say, you just might be talking to hear your head roar. Accuracy is an afterthought.
Me says
Has nothing to do with Republicans buddy! The government is corrupted!
Pop says
Yes it is 👍
Laurel says
Never seen corruption in my life like Trump and the people around him, including his kids. “I hire only the best people.” How’s that going now?
Dennis C Rathsam says
Ronald Reagen spoke the truth many many years ago when he said Im from the government, & Im here to help!
Laurel says
Yeah, I know. Ronald Reagan and John Wayne. Real heroes.
Flatsflyer says
The City Council obviously has no concern for the people. Fannchise Fee are the worst way to backdoor taxing. The citizens once again get screwed as we cannot deduct this from out taxes, same as our garbage fees. When these fools attend conferences for elected officials it seems that they are spending too much time at cocktail parties rather than learning how to run a municipality. They also need to learn that it’s not a requirement to purchase new equipment every year, that includes cars,, pickup trucks,, mowers,, firetruck. Have they ever heard of maintenance and repairs. I would like to know if any of our elected officials finished grade school because they act like a bunch of third graders.
LittleBruce says
The city needs to find another way, to strive and have cutbacks, How about all 5 city council members to take a vote
on reduction of their salary, that can be a huge start, This has tons of problems and none of them being
corrected traffic road conditions and safety, How many of the 5 city council members have road along
the F section a lot of the roads torn to pieces. New houses developments in the R section p section no sign
of brief description. How would anyone know they were for sale or to whole to contact. This city is becoming a jungle
Not a unicorn says
What? No! FPL just raised our rates by nearly 20%! The city of Palm Coast needs to get its act together. They work for us or we vote them out. See what happens when you vote for republicans? I can not wait to leave this boring town and the dumpster fire that is Florida. It’s embarrassing to say you’re from here.
Stump Jumper says
Alfin is the most democratic republican I’ve seen yet.
Littlebruce says
The Democratic would nerve accept him
Gary says
They waste enough money on pork. Just raised our property taxes. Raised water, swale, garbage bills already. They waste so much money on pork.
Mischa Gee says
Stop hiding taxes under the guise of fees. Just raise property taxes if you don’t have the money you need to run this city. Better yet, increase impact fees for new buildings and stop giving businesses big tax breaks for years, Those breaks aren’t drawing in money-making industry anyway.
I also agree with the person who said, spend within your means. That means stop doing things like rebuilding a Community Center fir $8 million. Or a failed and stupid waste of money called a splash pad, when for $7 million they could have built another community pool, fixed the one run by the Board of Education and paid for lifeguards. And, by the way, how would it be more profitable for the BoE to close the pool to the public, while continuing to have to maintain it for students? And, if you don’t keep it open so that working people can use it in the early evening, how do you expect to draw interest in membership?
We already pay higher sales tax in Flagler County than in St John’s and have less to show for it. I have lived on a fixed income, which for several years saw no increases, while the cost of living climbed. I have had to adjust, live with less, hold on to and maintain older things, like a 22 year old car, and this city thinks it can just keep sucking the life out of it’s citizens with “fees”.
Why did the politicians give themselves an undeserved raise, when they only work part time, and collect full time pay, without putting it in the ballot for a vote? Because they knew it would never pass otherwise. This fee for electricity, when our electric bills are already high, because of hotter weather for longer, is ridiculous. Our water and sewer bills are ridiculous and I keep getting black gunk or slime coming out of my faucets, have no indoor water pressure and clogged water lines in my kitchen sink and shower. No cold water in the kitchen, no hot in the shower and no money for new plumbing.
My home is only 20 years old and is in need of major work, while the place I left in NJ was 50 years old and never had slime come out of the 50 year old faucets there. If you’re going to continue to raise fees and cost of utilities then you need to provide improvements and value for those costs.
Palm Coast was a nice place to live 20 years ago, but is causing many of it’s long time citizens to run fat and far away.
Stacy says
Word. I still remember Belle Terre being two lanes without a median. Same for route 100. Everything was so verdant and green. We didn’t have many street lights, but there wasn’t ever a whole lot of traffic anyway. Now, I have about 500 cars zipping down my little one-of-two-or-three-cut-throughs every single day. There’s concrete, asphalt, and no trees for as far as the eye can see in pretty much every direction. Sometimes I have to wait to check my mail because the cars are flying by doing about 50 or 60.. sometimes more. I’ve had to replace my mailbox about once a year because people hit it, probably texting while they drive. It’s nothing like it used to be.
Flapharmtech says
The town of Palm Coast needs leaders who look to the future (EV charging stations hello!). We need decent paying jobs to afford these additional fees, taxes, blah blah blah. I want outta here but mom is here, so I’m stuck in this swamp of incompetence. And yes, I vote Blue. The good ole boys club here is staggeringly disgusting, and destroying what truly was a beautiful town.
Joe says
Elected officials need to raise developer fees and Impact fees and stop putting the tax burden on their constituents.
The cost of infrastructure improvements from the new housing being built is putting a strain on our wallets. They need to make the developers pay for their impacts and stop approving new housing!!!
TR says
I agree, but that won’t happen when our idiot Mayor is a realtor.
Stephen says
Please leave my FPL bill alone. You have already attacked my water bill.
The Sour Kraut says
Tax and spend, repeat endlessly. Alfin has no limit on the pie in the sky ideas he has for our money.
Jane says
Nope- no- and hell NO
Tony says
A “fee” is a tax in sheeps clothing.
Danm50 says
Big time shell game with OUR money.
Skibum says
If the goal and need is to have a set amount of taxpayer money coming in to the city to pay for services, just be upfront with residents and business owners about the needed amount. Just stop being disingenuous with the underhanded, around the back slight of hand moves! Don’t think for a second that we are too dumb to know that adding or increasing one fee that is specifically in lieu of a property tax hike just to falsely claim that the city is not increasing property taxes is no different than a flim-flam used car salesman advertising a car as a “steal”, putting a very low price tag on the windshield that draws customers in only to read the fine print showing in reality that there is a hidden transaction fee that significantly raises the price so it is no deal at all. Quit trying to act like used car salesmen!!! We want and expect honesty and truth in our city leaders.
Jonathan says
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO more rate increases. What about the new trash company that does not pick up recyle and throws everything in the same trash truck? We all need a discount now on our Utility bills, why should we pay for recycling service when we are no longer getting it?????? The City of PC is going down we need a new mayor and new counsel members.
Jimbo99 says
Imagine that, the more expensive Waste Service is no better than what we had ?
Michael Cocchiola says
It’s a tax dodge by any name.
Nephew Of Uncle Sam says
“…on how expensive the paving-maintenance needs of the city are getting:…” Maybe if the Council would charge more impact fees to Developers than grifting more from the citizenry they would have more money for roads and infrastructure. Time for the Council to really take a hard look at what they’re spending on for “amenities”, start with the parkways, the flowers look nice but I would rather see wildflowers that don’t have to be replanted every year at the expense of the taxpayer.
jeffery seib says
We better watch out; they will be taxing the air we breathe next. Apparently, the mayor and councilwoman Pontieri see nothing wrong with playing around with the facts. First it was stormwater, now they are looking at power, and tomorrow it will be water. Additionally, we are likely to expect another property tax increase they are working on now. The people of Palm Coast, even if where you came from up North had taxes ten times this, need to speak in a loud and united voice telling the council that we want them to, as we do as residents, live within our means. They have ways to do this that they would rather not discuss. I spoke at the meeting public participation about reducing non or less essential city departments funding or just keeping at this year’s funding levels, no increases. The roads, drainage, the saltwater canals, parks, sidewalks, natural areas, and more. These are all the things more important than building another half of Palm Coast west of US1. Let’s table that for now and focus on the necessary attributes of a city that would be: Beautiful and livable.
Jimbo99 says
It’s a double gouge for energy inflation in price & tax hikes. FPL raises their rates, the Government goes after 6%, then FPL raises their rates even higher and the cycle of inflation just is a tennis match, because 6% of even more is always going to be more. And there will be a day when the Government even has to reassess raising the percentage because that’s just what Government does.
If anyone thought EV’s were a solution, I’m on record that EV’s would do nothing more than replace electric power as the new gasoline. And since there is no way to delineate your home’s appliances from an EV, cooking a meal will eventually be as expensive as a gallon of gasoline. The experts aren’t experts, they are stupid morons that haven’t thought any of this thru. I’m sure the politicians will spin this as saving the planet somehow, yet that would be the furthest from the truth.
Jeff Horton says
The city council of Palm Coast needs to learn to live on a budget like everyone else. This mayor has done nothing but spend spend spend. It’s not your money!!! It belongs to the hard working tax payer, most of whom are already struggling. The city council didn’t need Hugh raises or a million dollars worth of new vehicles this year but, they bought them anyhow. We have seen increases in all city utility fees with no accountability. The tax payers of Palm Coast need to elect people to city council that will be fiscally responsible and vote the rest of you out of office. City council forgets who is suppose to work for who!
Pops says
Hopefully we change this next election #AlfinMustGo 👍
coyote says
@Pops :
Agreed – but then again, that’s what we thought with the last batch that was voted out, and look where it got us? The new choices at election time turn out to be the same as or worse than the people we toss out.
One of the biggest problems I see is that in the current political and social atmosphere – just WHO with any reasonable intelligence would want to get involved in politics? The only people we get who run are the power-grabbers, looking to inflate their egos and use local politics as a stepping stone to bigger and better grifts.
The few ‘leftovers’ (no insult intended) who are still around because they actually want to accomplish something useful, and who care about the constituency are being steamrollered by the new breed of idiots, liars, and con-persons.
We really really need a 90-day ‘tryout’ period for all newly-elected officials – with the option to dump them if they don’t measure up after taking office. This having to wait 2 or 4 years till the next election gives the bottom-feeders too much time to establish themselves (not mentioning the Governor and his stacked legislature, and soon to be stacked judicial offices .. nope, not at all).
Laurel says
Coyote: I totally agree with you. The Sheriff’s Department has a new party, um, pontoon boat added to their fleet of power boats, one of which, that I know of, is a C.O.P. boat for volunteers, to do what? Somebody tell me why, please.
Ed says
85 miles of waterway are their responsibility, maybe they are strong enough swimmers. Come on a pontoon boat is 1/2 the cost of a v hull power boat.
Laurel says
Ed: The 85 miles of Intracoastal Waterway is not the Flagler County Sheriff’s responsibility. It belongs to the Army Corp of Engineers unless you have an intra-local agreement laying around. I live on the ICW and I see all kinds of breaches daily. I see two boats trying to pass a third at the same time. I see boats flying on both sides of a sailboat. I see two teenagers standing on the seat with arms out ala Titantic with no one at the wheel. I see boats with twice the number of people allowed for that craft, with no life jackets. I see boats at top speed passing professional tow boats towing. I see boats waking kyackers. I see teenagers swimming down the middle of the river with no dive signs. I see kids riding on the boat bow while at top speed.
No one is monitoring.
Now, do tell:
What do C.O.P. volunteers, in uniform, in the V-hull do?
What is the pontoon boat for?
Where are the deputies in the other V-hull going, at noon, when they speed north towards the bbq and one hour later, speed south?
What is the cost of these boats, V-hulls and pontoon?
What is the cost of maintenance?
Looks like show to me.
Ed says
You are a bit confused. The sheriff department is responsible for patrolling the water ways including the ICW. Plus all our canals too!
Yes they do monitor them.
I’m not qualified to state what the budget is for boats. I would also suggest you request the patrol to pass by your house to witness all these violations and answer your questions.
Laurel says
Ed: I am not confused, but I stand corrected. You are right. I looked at who is in charge of monitoring the ICW in Broward County, where I’m from, and found that the Broward Sheriff’s Department has a Marine Division. There is a huge difference between here and there regarding monitoring. If in Broward, you will get pulled over in a heartbeat if you break any rules. It’s like they just materialize! Here, I see this narrow part of the ICW is like I-95 without lines or speed limits. Actually, it’s worse. Friends and relatives from down south and up north are always shocked at what they see here, and ask us why this behavior is allowed. We have no answer other than it’s not being monitored.
We rarely see a sheriff’s boat, or C.O.P. boat (useless), and when they do go out, they zip by and gone. I’ve never see anyone pulled over in 12 years. There are people in Palm Coast who have sold their boats because they feel it’s too dangerous to drive them here. We never take our boat out on a Saturday, Sunday or holiday, yet we did in the more populated south.
Carol Caso says
TAXED OUT
Why do these “Good Ole Boys” have to keep raising our taxes and place a levy on our services when John Netts was able to pave 50 roads in town every year with just a 1.5 added to our sales tax. We haven’t seen any road pavings since Melissa Holland repaved Belle Terre & added street lights for our safety . Of course, neither she or John Netts earned the huge salaries that our Mayor gave himself and the council members for their PART TIME JOB!!!. Our council earn more for their part time job then most residents of Palm Coast. I say, STOP the WESTWARD HO movement and focus on our city. There is plenty of undeveloped land on Rt. 1 that you can draw businesses to before you focus on opening up the woods in WESTWARD HO . Our town center still has not drawn any businesses other then the movie theater . Pave our residential and city roads FIRST before building a dual lane highway and a fly over to NO WHERE!!!
Land of no turn signals says says
Hello no they all gotta go.
Atwp says
Economy is better under Democrat President, why vote Republicans. People are complaining about tax hikes but will continue to vote fir Republicans. Don’t understand. Dennis your comment is good, never thought I would agree with you.
Atwp says
Did we just get a small deduction on our light bill? Now they are trying to take it away.
bruces says
lert! There will be a city council Meeting on July 18th at 900am. It will be very important that at least one person from every house hold attend this meeting, The city will be taking a vote on adding a 6 pct (tax) fee to your electric bill, this after they just raised rates on your water bills. Then they will plan to also ask for 3 pct increase on the Mil rates so your property taxes will further increase. If you can’t make the meeting call your council member from your district and insist they reduce their salaries for their part time work. Last weeks meeting the city admitted they are totally broke (perhaps due to so much annexation and expansion through and around the city of Bunnell?) say no to the corruption going on against we the citizens! Let your displeasure and voice be heard.
Laurel says
Bruces” They voted themselves a pay raise. The city workers will have their annual and cost of living raises frozen.
Bruces says
Lauren how do you know that people like Delronza Bevan need their salarys cut they all not the small time work that perhaps makes 12.00 a hour
Bruces says
Delronsa i am told on a contract six figures presume Bevan the same
BRUCES says
I have been living in this city for almost 11 years and have not seen a good city council yet.
Residents can not and should not have to be Burden with another raise hike of services.
To many elderly here what you going to do put them on the street
Its just crazy what they proposing and they talking about another Mil increase of 3 pct
enough enough when i grew up in Brooklyn Beneshurst we have no crime none of this crazy stuff
because the Mafia controlled the area. when i lived in Toms River Nj it was the same situation
There should be no realestate people on the city council nor any high official working with the city
There should be no person who has DuI on a city council
we need a total new city council . People ensure you at city hall meeting on Tuesday july 18th 160 lake dv city hall
bruces says
3 Donkeys at the helmStop spending our money, No cares about the swimming faccity at holland parkThe crime rate at the location is unbelievable read the police reportsNo one cares about the Picketball Nick if you want one why dont you invest your own money/
Stop raising the service rates in this city the water, garbage collection
Fix the streets pot holes, Traffic Conditions of unsale racing peopleno lights in the neighborhoods I posted below on Flaglerlivethe people our praying for corrections in this cityThis year you raised the Mil Rate, raised the garbage rate raised the utility bill
just imposed 5% on the Fpl fancy words Franchise Tax 5.00coming next another Mil rate increase please see belowthe bottom Line Teresa sold the people out what do you anticipate I knew Affin would vote and Nick he follows the leaders
he has no mind of his own, He is a kiss ass person and he followed Holland like a puppy dog
teressa was the shocker perhaps the liquor is getting to her brian as someone said
Mr Mayor thank god you will be gone next election Nick is gone thank god Ed is finished
all these people can follow the past Mullins Trump and all the corrupt people
Perhaps people will start thinkin
bruces says
OK FOLKS WE NEED TO GET EDUCATED THIS IS OUR MONEY NOT THERES
WHERE IS THE SAFETY ON THE STREET. AND BEFORE WE TALK ABOUT CUTS
OR BUDGETS PEOPLE WITH CRIMINAL RECORDS NEED TO STOP BE ALLOWED TO RUN
ITS THAT SIMPLE ASK FOR THEM TO RESIGN AND YES DUI ARE A CRIMINAL OFFENSE
EVEN IF ANOTHER STATE STOP VOTING FOR THESE TYPE OF PEOPLE
AND IF NOTHING ELSE LET THEM TAKE MASSIVE PAY CUTS
THERE IS NO REASON TO PAY A ADMIN OF SIX FIGURE THIS CITY IS BROKE