In another unseemly, disconcerting meeting that included coarse language and flaring tempers from the dais and rowdy and name-calling behavior from a floor thronged with residents, the Palm Coast City Council today substantially lowered the property tax rate in one vote and with another approved a new fee or tax–a very modest one for now–on power bills.
The fee was approved on first reading, and would have to be ratified again in two weeks. Based on the plan approved today, the council would leave it to voters in a future non-binding ballot initiative to determine what percentage of the new utility franchise fee they’d be willing to tax themselves–between 0.5 percent and 6 percent–so the city can use the revenue to maintain or improve city streets in increasing need of attention.
The ballot initiative is not a certainty: the administration will explore that legality in the next two weeks, and resubmit the proposal to the council for final approval on second reading. If the city cannot go that route, the franchise fee would be scrapped. If the council approves the new fee later this month, it will go in effect at the 0.5 percent rate this fall. A different rate would only go in effect if voters approve it in the November 2024 election.
Both votes split the council 3-2, with Mayor David Alfin and council members Nick Klufas and Theresa Pontieri in the majority, and Ed Danko and Cathy Heighter in dissent. Both votes caused a ruckus.
Danko was chiefly responsible for the tawdriness of the meeting as he incited the crowd and pandered to it, especially when Alfin, in a tactical blunder, passed the gavel to Danko–the vice mayor–so Alfin could make a motion to approve the new tax rate. That enabled Danko to chair that portion of the meeting so unchecked that he jeered the mayor and gaveled the city attorney to shut her up as she attempted to restore the very decorum he had fractured.
“I normally would be in favor of a complete millage rollback that would mean zero increases on your property tax,” Danko said. “However, in this case, it’s nothing but a cheap political trick, and it’s basically we’re going to give you a break here, but then we’re going to shove it up your ass over here, and take the money back from you.” He went on along those lines before turning to the mayor: “I gotta tell you, Mr. Mayor. I am ashamed of you today, this is the cheapest trick, oldest political trick in the book, and the fact that you would try to pull this off, I have no doubt people will remember this come election time.”
“You’re here grandstanding,” Klufas, who has rarely lost his cool on the dais, told Danko, his voice rising and his fist pounding the dais, before Danko interrupted him by accusing him of not doing his job and the attorney attempted to intervene, invoking “rules of decorum.”
“I think you’ve taken some liberties, campaigned and pandered quite a bit,” Alfin told Danko when the mayor reclaimed the gavel.
The clamor of the meeting drowned out its somewhat historic import: while Palm Coast has adopted the rolled-back rate in the past, it has never done so by cutting its way back to rollback and eliminating revenue–$2.8 million would be cut from what the current rate would have brought in net year. That’s 60 percent of the projected increase in revenue the administration had proposed.
In the aftermath of the housing crash in 2007, the council went to rollback in some years, but it had to increase the tax rate to get there, compensating for property values that had plummeted. At the time, raising the tax rate to rollback ensured that the city’s revenue stayed flat.
The second historic change today was the city’s adoption of a new fee, or tax–the utility franchise fee, in a 30-year agreement with Florida Power and Light. While the contract gives the city a potentially hefty source of new revenue, that would happen only if the fee is set at 6 percent, the maximum allowed by law (and the level at which cities like Bunnell, Flagler Beach and Ormond Beach set their fee.) The council considered such a fee at least twice in the last 11 years, only to face fierce resistance from the public and reverse course.
The utility franchise fee agreement passed today on first reading, but mostly as a place-holder. The fee itself was set at 0.5 percent, the lowest level at which it may be set. It’ll cost a household using 1,000 kwh a month about $2 a month, or $24 a year. If the city had set the fee at 6 percent, it would have cost closer to $8 or $10 a month.
Pontieri made the case for the franchise fee as a way of diversifying the city’s tax base. She said, with agreement from Klufas, that the city should never again be in the position it was in the aftermath of the housing crash, when it had to raise the property tax as steeply as it did to ensure that services continued. What neither Pontieri nor Klufas noted was that those increases were not, in fact, tax increases on residents, but rate increases to keep revenue level. The effect on property owners, homesteaded property owners especially, was neutral.
Nevertheless, the franchise fee, while more regressive than the property tax, would apply to all properties–homesteaded homes, business, schools, churches, non-profit organizations–as the property tax does not. It would as Pontieri suggests, be a hedge against plummeting property taxes, should a crash happen as it did in 2006-7. That’s assuming the franchise fee is generating substantial revenue.
Based on last week’s discussion at a council workshop, today’s outcome was not likely the one the council majority was seeking. Pontieri last week had made clear er interest in reducing the city’s reliance on the property tax, but not in reducing city revenue. Alfin and Klufas have almost always deferred to administrative recommendations on the budget: leaving the city with a $2.8 million hole was almost certainly not their intention, much as today’s dynamics make it impossible to reverse course.
The “hole” should be qualified: to be sure, city revenue is not declining. It is still increasing. But instead of increasing by $5.7 million, had the council kept next year’s property tax rate flat, it will increase by $2.9 million. That’s still a very hard hit for the administration, which had crafted a budget based on the expected $5.7 million increase. It will not be able to make up the revenue through the franchise fee, except fractionally.
In actual numbers, the city administration was recommending maintaining the current property tax rate of $4.6 mils, or $4.6 per $1,000 in taxable value: a $225,000 house with a taxable value of $175,000 would have a Palm Coast tax bill of $805.
Alfin’s proposal to adopt the rolled-back rate of 4.257 mils means that the $225,000 house would have a Palm Coast tax bill of $745, a saving of $60 (at least next year).
The rolled-back rate is the tax rate that would generate almost the same revenue next year as it did this year. Anything above that rate would be considered a tax increase, even if the tax rate is cut. (See: “What is the Roll-Back Rate in Property Taxes?“)
The city administration spends months preparing the budget that the council then spends additional months discussing, refining and finally adopting in September, ahead of the fiscal year beginning on Oct. 1. So the city’s directors, who usually sit along the back wall, demarcated from the crowd by a moat of tables, must have been watching in horror as first Danko, then Pontieri in a matter of moments turned the budget into charcuterie as they tallied up where they’d get the $2.8 million from.
Danko would have reduced the streets budget from $12 to $10 million next year, though in fact the entire current budget this year was $8.55 million, and was to grow by $800,000. He’d have cut the communications and marketing department’s budget in half, and imposed an unclear hiring freeze that would not apply to fire services.
Pontieri would cut $1.2 million from the city’s fleet-replacement dollars, essentially halting a long-developed and calibrated replacement system. The city manager’s “contingency fund” would be cut by $225,000. And she estimated that the “current millage rate” combined with improving property values and an 8 percent inflation rate would somehow yield another $1.4 million. That last calculation does not appear tethered to the city’s books as they are: the inflation rate is falling sharply and has no bearing on city revenue as Pontieri was projecting, and other factors are assumptions that essentially result in placing the burden of the balance of needed cuts on what would end up in next year’s reserves.
When Pontieri was discussing budget figures, she was refusing to answer Danko’s question about whether she would not make up the difference through the franchise fee. The council hadn’t reached that point yet. So when the public began addressing the council, it did so on the assumption that the fee would go in effect closer to 6 percent.
“I think it’s all smoke and mirrors,” Michael Martin told the council. “There is no point in doing an actual rollback rate if you’re going to give us supposedly reduced taxes and then on the other hand, take it away and increase fees. So I absolutely agree with you. If you’re going to do the rollback rate, which I do support, then you absolutely cannot give us a tax increase in terms of additional fees.”
Kathy Austrino, who started by saying that it’s “wicked hot,” said she was concerned about her elderly friends and shut-ins. “My electric bill is going to scare me next month because of this heat. What happens to them and their fixed incomes? They have to stay well. So just please keep in mind the heat in the season.” Another speaker spoke of knowing an elderly man who refuses to put his air conditioning on because of his power bill. “I just want to remind everybody that people can go into convulsions at a temperature of 104, and they can die past 106,” she said, recommending a different fee or tax than one on power bills. “I know you’re not going to listen to us about the growth. That’s hopeless,” she added.
“Everything is due to the this growth, we hear the hundreds of pages of agendas of growth every single meeting of this council, the same thing,” Celia Pugliesi told the council. “Stop with this overgrowth, this expansion. We’re becoming like the Romans expanding too far, when we’re not taking care of what we have, sir.”
“It is imperative for the council to be upright and honest with the citizens of Palm Coast,” another resident said. “If you need X million dollars for your budget, you establish a millage rate for that amount and stop playing games with us by establishing franchise fees that you can just throw into your general fund, and there’s no accounting for, and nobody has any idea what you’re doing with it, and you can raise it willy-nilly whenever you want, and there is no connection whatsoever to the actual Florida Power System in that.” (In fact, revenue rom the franchise fee would go into the general fund in the same way that revenue from the property tax does. Spending out of the general fund would be tracked the same way is it today, with every dollar accounted for, as annual audits certify.)
There were some strange and inaccurate ideas, like one man’s proposal to put the city’s water utility on the market and using the money from its sale to eliminate budget problems in future years (it would not). Another called all taxes “theft.” Inevitably, there was the call for a “forensic audit” of the budget and a call for the firing of a department director, based on hearsay that “she refuses to let people lower her budget.” Another said “we don’t need all this fluff that you are putting on here,” without giving one example of “fluff.”
Where two or more strange or factually incorrect ideas are presented, it is inevitable that Dennis McDonald, the once-seasonal candidate for office, would make an appearance, as he did today (twice)–implying that one of the city’s top employees should not be “on vacation in Europe,” and that by driving an electric car, Klufas was somehow cheating the city of tax dollars (as opposed to drastically reducing his carbon footprint and those associated costs on an environment McDonald ostensibly advocates for).
Vince Liguori, who’s led previous battles to defeat either the utility franchise fee or the public service tax, put it this way to council members: “Do you believe the other councils were stupid to reject that franchise tax? No, they were just as smart as you and probably smarter.” He then wondered why the council wasn’t discussing budget cuts or considering cutting council members’ salaries–which were increased 151 percent only last year.
As Danko held the gavel, he allowed speakers to break protocol and address or play to the crowd–as Danko himself did when he launched the discussion–to applaud at will. The crowd wasn’t calmer during the franchise fee discussion, though by then Alfin controlled the gavel.
Russell Rossilini says
Residents need to wake up and stop voting for these clowns who have no idea of how to be REAL public SERVANTS. Danko must go once and for all
Carol Caso says
WHY DID I EVER VOTE FOR ANYONE OF YOU??? Especially, Pontieri, – who fed us a bunch of lies to get our votes only to agree to a franchise tax in her first year on council. SHAME ON YOU. YOU LIED TO THE SENIORS & HARD WORKING CITIZENS OF PALM COAST!!! YOU WILL LOOSE THE PUBLIC’S VOTES & YOUR JOB ON THE COUNCIL!!!!! With all the increases our Mayor has imposed and the poor shape of our UNSAFE roads, especially Belle Terre Parkway, So. , our swales, and antiquated PEP systems , he too will loose the peoples votes which in turn, will loose his job too. The people need you to take care of our existing city before you move Westward HO!!!! We have a lot of undeveloped land on Rt. 100 across from the high school that can be developed for stores, — not storage buildings and car washes!!!!
Here's a quarter call someone who cares..... says
No actually Pontieri did a good job of explaining the lies Danko started. Danko didn’t even read nor knows how to read the budget.
Cathy Heighter is another one that don’t read the packet.
You are wrong on Pontieri, get rid of Danko.
Marcus Aurelius says
Did Carol do any research into the background of Pontieri before voting for her????
From what I’ve seen here in Flagler County, if you’ve got an “R” behind your name everyone and anyone will vote for you. Rarely does anyone do even a simple Google search on each candidate, whether “R” or “D”. WHY????
How many times are you people going to believe the “LIES” these people running for office tell. Then, when things go south with the people you’ve elected, you immediately start screaming either “Vote them out” or “Fire them” (you can’t fire an elected “official”), or some other stupidity. In actuality its YOUR own fault for voting for someone based on an “R”.
Carol, had you done a very simple Google search and then used some thoughtful evaluation, you would have found out that Pontieri:
1. Was fired (“resigned” from the FCSO after a very very short time).
2. Had some issues with driving on I-4 drunk with kids in the car.
3. is basically a failed and/or unsuccessful attorney who never really made it in that realm; hence, the entry into politics.
4. Other things.
Did any one of you who voted for her know the above 4 points? Or did you just decide to overlook all that because of the “R”?
Or do you just treat elections like a popularity contest and believe everything these mostly low lifes say?
Shame on you people who never look into the people you’re voting for.
Currently we have politicians voted in by “R” with the following background issues:
1. Pontieri. What I’ve written above speaks for itself.
2. Another person who was caught embezzling from a business not once, but twice, and who lost a State of Florida license as a result.
3. Many, many Jill Woolbright insiders who are now running for office. How would you know? RESEARCH. ARE YOU GOING TO VOTE FOR THEM TOO?
4. Another person who defrauded the federal government out of PPP funds by claiming to be a MINORITY.
5. Another person currently running for office who ALSO defrauded the federal government out of PPP funds.
6. Another current councilman who was run out of another city in another state for “threatening” physical violence against a business owner, and who is now currently running for a different political seat locally. He also has anger issues, to say the least. He’s now running for office for a different position in Flagler County. Going to vote for him too, Carol?
Another thing I’ve noticed is that the newcomers to this area (2-5 years), have NO CLUE what’s going on in Palm Coast or Flagler County but who also vote “R” without having any idea about all the above.
It’s YOUR FAULT things are in such a political mess. For God’s sake take some time to do some research! AND stop crying and screaming about your choices which have made such a mess of things here in Palm Coast and Flagler County.
Joey G says
You tell em Marcus,
I have been here over 30 years raised a family and now into retirement we are looking to get out of here. I saw a cop the other day on whiteview pull someone over and stick half that freaking mustang in the lane. He could have easily caused a crash. No common sense at all they think there shit don’t stink. Pull the car over and go in the grass but no, half the car was blocking the road. Years ago they would pull someone over and have them turn down a side street, nope not today. This town sucks but it didn’t years ago.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Carol Caso: and whoever thought of putting that ugly storage facility on SR 100 should be
fired, what an eyesore to put a tin can storage facility for people to see in a high traffic
area, they could have built a beautiful strip mall with all kinds of amenities, its looks cheap
and tacky. Danko is right cut these high paying buddy system salaries, communications
and marketing is the do nothing BS jobs, he knows.
pete says
If they would quit spending money on water parks walk bridges and all the other crap there would be money to spend on things that are really needed. Its time to clean the house and get some new blood with brains and not trains.
Robjr says
Roads got paved in the past without adding on an electric bill tax.
atwp says
Republicans will make people poor, people must like being poor. They continue to elect Repubicans. Please continue to make Pslm Coast a poor city. Republicans are the worst.
can'tfoolme says
Maybe I’m wrong but a tax on electricity seems more fair. Property owners are currently bearing the burden while renters pay no property tax. Everyone uses eclectricity so this seems to equalize the playing field a little bit. Sounds good to me.
Observationalist says
Agreed. I know it’s not a popular opinion, but I don’t think it’s that bad either. I know all things are rising in costs and I know it’s just one more thing… so I get it. But I think it’s fair. The city has been growing like crazy, they need to be able to maintain the roads… I feel bad for those on low income or fixed income, but this tax is not going to be the deciding factor for them. It’s everything else that is going on in this world and country.
Laurel says
Can’t and Observ: For starters, landlords pass on tax increases to renters, they have to. Also keep in mind that renters often pay their own utilities, so what you stated doesn’t make sense. To me, this constant need to squeeze residents is twofold: gentrification and bad management.
Oh, and take the money and run before they are voted out.
pete says
Renters don’t pay taxes? It’s added into the rent that is paid to the landlord. The landlord pays the tax’s
Kat says
I’m slightly puzzled as to how this affects Flagler county residents who don’t live in Palm Coast. Particularly, I live in unincorporated Flagler County, but my water comes from the city of Palm Coast and my electricity from FPL.
If I am interpreting this correctly, I am now going to be charged utility fees that go towards the roads within the city of Palm Coast? Does anyone have a different take on this?
Laurel says
Kat: Not yet, but don’t hold your breath.
protonbeamexposure says
The shit show continues unabated – no wonder so many employees, residents and businesses have left town or have decided not to come (or expand) in the first place. This city has spiraled into a shitty and impossible place to do business again where employee self interest is the only active concern and zero experienced leadership exists.
We send competent people packing for not being “red” enough or willing to bow to the old power guard, who still remain very much in control – we shaft the Schools and the FYO and kill anything that resembles tolerance and community harmony- we have the likes of “Demon Danko” who literally will lie about anything and everything and only knows how to destroy –
I mean why wouldn’t Danko lie, it has served him well with the rest of the liars in Palm Coast who selfishly destroy everything in their path for personal gain. They use our kids like pawns in their sick quest for power. I used to dismiss comments like mine – but I will be packing my shit and find a much better place to call home before it gets …worse …and it will. our streets are failing, all we get is mini-storages for new business and every last free penny goes to the emperor of law and order.
Liar says
Well Danko, you lost your “no new taxes” campaign promise, which just goes to show how much influence you have on your constituents.
Please tell me when and where you will be consuming antifreeze so all the idiots who voted for you can go and watch !
Greg says
I’m ashamed to say I’m,I e in poorly run Flagler County, and especially Palm Coast
Denise says
Oh you want more??? To spend another 12 million on a stupid walkover like the one on Hwy 100 that goes where????? Meanwhile our schools are busting out the seams. Oh, and approve a big box store and various restaurants on the already traffic jam packed Hwy 100 right at Seminole Woods Parkway? What are you building in the Town Center area that was originally supposed to be for restaurants and other business? Hmmmm
Dennis C Rathsam says
Give seniors a tax break period! We live on fixed incomes, if you keep raising this & rasing that…Where are we suppose to get the money from? Bidenomics is killing everyone, all over the country! Now is not the time to raise anything. Mr mayor, & so called council members, cut your salaries, you dont deserve the money your stealling from us!
Laurel says
Dennis: “Bidenomics” has nothing to do with majority Republican Flagler County.
Dave M says
How about we get to the point of being financially responsible. I don’t know of how many utility workers I see working. inevitably it is one or two people working and four watching. We buy the best of machinery and seem to spend like a drunken sailor. We only seem to worry as a city when the credit card bill comes in at the end of the month. I can’t believe for a city our size the money we pay our people in the ivory tower over by the cinema. Start cutting costs there, work next on any city worker, the vehicles they drive and lastly the council. All mentioned are overpaid and do nothing to get our hard earned tax dollars. We plan for nothing, panic when something needs repair, overpay when it is repaired (Belle Terre walkway) and try to jam franchise fees down our throats saying it is for the better. Lets elect people who can actually develop, plan and deliver. Enough of these fools in power.
Gina Weiss says
Good for you Danko for standing up to these a**h**es who make promises to get elected and
when they do they do nothing and as for Kuflas he is the biggest do nothing you are right!
This mayor should be ashamed of himself, we will be rallying for you at the polls, for the
commission seat keep fighting FOR THE PEOPLE!
Leila says
Solutions are needed, not grandstanding. Why is it this community keeps electing people like Danko to public office? He is a clown on display,
We have got to have better, more qualified people running for public office here.
D Daly says
Another day passes and another false narrative and lie gets told by the same small group of people.
This group: danko, lowe, mullins, denny, demers and woolbright never cease to amaze.
Remember a few weeks ago “The Flagler Youth Orchestra” debacle? Same group.
Has the FBI/ IRS raided the FYO yet? #bombshell.
This is 2.0 and it’s easy to see through their manipulation.
Palm Coast has doubled in size the last 10 years. These people all came here for the same reasons everyone else did. Yes, the people who’ve been here 10 years don’t want them. We who’ve been here for 25+ years didn’t want you here either, but here we are.
Growth means a bigger demand on infrastructure, particularly, our roads. We will need to maintain our current roads. We will need to build new roads. That requires money, people. Maintaining roads is a far better option than replacing roads.
The franchise fee pays for roads. The fee will increase electric bills. Ask Danko how much? He doesn’t know, he doesn’t care. He got his pay raise damn it and the roads can go to pot!
Of course, no one wants an increase in their cost of living. Hold on!
There was a roll back on spending that isn’t even getting mentioned: $2.4 million in cuts. That could even be increased. Imagine “conservatives” who ignore cutting govt spending by $2.4+ million? I give you this group!
This drama was completely staged. Danko is running for County Comm and needs something to try and make voters forget he’s been a do nothing at the city level and voted himself a pay raise. He also needs this bc who knows when Sheriffs will be at his house again, maybe next time charges get filed!
To support this hapless fraud, we have the same group of thoughtless drum beaters who continue to embarrass themselves and every thoughtful Republicans with their trashy antics.
The commenters were the same variety:
“We need more businesses here”. Agreed, but we also need to pass a budget using our current state of affairs and not businesses we wish were here.
Alfin has been a problem mayor. “Westward expansion” is not something voters want to hear. He did handle this special kind of crazy admirably and wannabe Mayoral candidate Norris did himself no credit with his, completely incorrect argument, on “gentrification”. If he can be that wrong with a carefully prepared statement, he may not be ready.
This second meeting should be fun entertainment for anyone wanting to see the passionately ill informed make fools of themselves on the tree of the Flagler Conservatives (they call themselves). They aren’t conservatives but, they certainly have the “Con” part right.
TR says
With our electric bill be high enough already. Now these idiots want to add an extra fee to it. These idiots can afford the increase being they gave themselves that big raise so why do they care? Oh wait, they don’t. I would like to know how a city government can add a fee to the electric companies bill? It’s bad enough they screwed us with the garbage company, a useless splash park and now they want to add a fee to a another companies bill. Whatever happened to them going after the owners of the undeveloped lots and get them to pay the storm water fee. These idiots need to go, but who is there to replace them that would do for the residence instead of themselves?
Oofa says
Does anyone realize that Danko and Cathy Heighter voted no on the milage rollback rate!
They didn’t understand the motion. That’s what we have as our City Council…..stupida stupida
bruces says
i was out the meeting and after several people pleading not to pass this bill it will hurt 6-7 made the statement that they will leave the city, These leader of ours could be on some substance because they dont get it. They just a grant from the government where is that going, when i spoke i mentioned the roads i live on cimmaron and they dont care, They dont care if you leave the city, its a freaking mess between my water bill and Fpl bill its over 500.00 when they increased the water bill i called every near by city and no one is charging service fees you pay what you use simple. I made a statement that we should contact the state and ask for a investigation but its all republicans so who. when i asked them who will be willing to take a pay decrease and Danko raised his hand but probably In a way we deserve this, we need to investigate the people running, We have two council people that have Dui;s but the problem is you have 3 people who have real estate liccenses and one who is had a high position on the city . I lived in Georgia for 25 years left because could not breath the air, Georgia has become a blue state the 5 horseshits has helped people go blue on voting George will destroy Danko and Affin will be as mayor. We need to try and get help from someone My youngest son works out of the white house i am going to ask him if he has any suggestions
tulip says
People who have been here for a long time have sold their houses and moved.
New people that moved into the house that was sold now pay a much higher property tax rate than the previous owner did. That makes an increase of money coming into the city because of the higher amount they pay.
Our homes now have a higher value and therefore all home owners pay higher property taxes now. That creates additional money for the city.
New houses are springing up all over the place and the owners of those homes will pay high property taxes. Plus the new construction brings impact fees to the city.
It seems to me that, due to the increase of money coming into the city’s coffers, more of that money could be earmarked for repairs to the roads. No need to add a fee . Now the county commissioners want to add 1/2 cent sales tax as well.
Jim099 says
Was at the meeting. I do have to say that people really need to think before getting up to speak. Do a little homework before hand so you don’t sound like a fool. Love the ones who raise their voices and remind them that “we ” voted you in etc. etc. etc.. Like they don’t know that. Some that go think they just need to make sure people know they are there. Sit Down.
Want to know who is doing the calculation on estimated cost. I just got a $318.00 electric bill. If they go with the 6%, that makes it $19.08 additional. I hope the person who calculated this out doesn’t have an important position in the city finance department.
bruces says
The bottom Line Teresa sold the people out what do you anticipate I knew Affin would vote and Nick he follows the leaders
he has no mind of his own, He is a kiss ass person and he followed Holland like a puppy dog
teressa was the shocker perhaps the liqu0or is getting to her brian as some one said
Mr Mayor thank god you will be gone next election Nick is gone thank god Ed is finished
all these people can follow the past Mullins Trump and all the corrupt people
Perhaps people will start thinking votiing Blue You get what you vote for
one question i asked who is willing to take a pay cut Mr Danko was the only raising his hand
idots people stop voting for corrupt people Desantis population has dropped to 40 percent in disapprove
Trump is finished so he is left on the republican side. As i stated in the Meeting this council needs to be investigated. At this point Alan Lowell does not sound so bad after all, Because i believe he is for the community along with other people George, and others