Flagler County government loves its airport, its two runways that accommodate 500 flights a day and the $2.3 million it generates in services, $900,000 of it in fuel sales, according to the current budget.
The airport under Roy Sieger’s management has been the county’s true economic development engine. Its numerous businesses and leases–and private-sector jobs operating out of airport property–far outstrip anything the county’s hobbling economic development development department has managed to assemble, and at lower cost: the airport is essentially full, and looking to expand.
But Flagler Executive Airport, as it’s been renamed, is not making too many friends among neighbors, who year after year have been increasingly complaining to county officials about the noise generated by the airport’s torrid flight-school activity. Most of those 500 takeoffs and landings a day (or 435, depending on whose figures you choose) are generated by flight schools like Embry Riddle Aeronautic University’s.
Contrary to a recurrent myth among neighbors–a myth they don’t hesitate to disseminate, knowing it to be false if they look at their property tax bill every year–the airport is not hurting property values. Values are rising. But it is hurting neighbors’ quality of life for people who live in Quail Hollow, along Belle Terre Boulevard and its tributary streets, as well as in the LL section of Palm Coast. It’s not helping that while they hear airport noise day in and day out, the residents’ complaints have gone unheard, and it’s not helped that, at least from residents’ perspective, airport management has been dismissive.
A half dozen residents brought their complaints to the Flagler County Commission Monday evening, the latest in several attempts to catch commissioners’ attention. This time, the residents made some headway, perhaps because one of them threatened a lawsuit: County Manager Jerry Cameron said there will be a workshop on the issue, and solutions sought, in January.
It was the first time that, first, county government acknowledged that a problem exists, and second, that it was willing to seek possible alternatives.
It was Jay Siciliani, a resident of Zinnia Court, who threatened a lawsuit.
“I talked to Roy Sieger the airport manager, again last week about this issue,” Siciliani said, “and his response to me was: ‘The airport has been here since 1942, before the homes were built.’ My response to him was: the homes were here before the flight schools were allowed at the airport, so what’s the point? Nobody has made any effort to solve this problem in the two years that we’ve been addressing it. The airport should go with the community, not against it. People move to Palm Coast because of its peacefulness and natural beauty. If the county does not control how it grows, then Palm Coast will become undesirable.”
He presented options, asking for traffic to be controlled by allowing training planes to operate five days a week from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. and from 8 a.m. to noon on Saturdays, with no flights on Sundays and holidays. He said the county commission controls the airport “no matter what anybody says,” and added: “If you refuse to help us, and we the people of this community that suffer from this, we’ll file a class-action lawsuit against the county and the airport for emotional distress.”
“It’s a complex issue, and I think the time has come to do a presentation to the public and the board, as to exactly what challenges we have and what might be done,” County Administrator Jerry Cameron said. “I would like to put that on the agenda for either the first or second meeting in January.”
The residents’ aim is to hear more than talk. Siciliani had help to make his points. Barbara Lake, whose house is about 150 feet from the edge of airport property (across Belle Terre Boulevard), spoke of health issues related to the noise. Another resident said the noise had become intolerable. “I bought my house down here 15 years ago,” she said. “I’m a New York City retired RN, and intended to retire down here, which I did a couple of months ago. My husband is currently in cancer remission. What attracted me to Palm Coast was, I was absolutely blown away by its pristine beauty. And Palm Coast was also built on the premise of being a refuge for its environment and its wildlife.” She said “dealing with the management there is absolutely impossible. It’s insulting. They mock us. They make fun of us. They don’t take us seriously, which is very discouraging. It just adds to the tenseness of what’s going on.” She said she knew she was buying property near an airport, but the noise was bearable when she did so. That ended as flight-school noise ramped up.
“There is a price to pay for progress, my friend,” she said she was told when she complained about real estate values “plummeting” because of the flight schools’ noise. “Well, maybe pilots will buy the houses,” she says she was told. “Besides, police and medics make more noise.”
In fact, far from plummeting, property values around the airport are rising sharply. Siciliani’s property, for example, improved 10 percent this year in just market value, according to the Flagler County Property Appraiser. The empty lot next to him improved 14 percent. The house two doors down improved 25 percent. All those properties are in the direct flight path of an airport runway. Closer to Belle Terre Boulevard, and therefore closer to the runway, a sample of properties along Zircon Court–from 13 down to 5 Zircon–shows each home’s or lot’s value increasing 15 percent, 22 percent, 12 percent, 15 percent, and 13 percent just year over year, from 2018 to 2019. The improvements are steeper going back a few years.
So residents won’t make headway with a property-value argument. But they seemed to be more persuasive when discussing their quality of life.
A woman who bought her house a few years ago in the Z Section knew of the airport, but not of the constant noise. “My dogs are afraid to go outside,” she said, “they look up at the air constantly because the noise is so loud and so annoying. We are trying to get rid of our house. We don’t want to live in Palm Coast anymore because of what’s going on and nothing being done about it.”
Previous presentations before the commission on airport activity have focused almost exclusively on the airport’s presence as an economic engine, each presentation hewing closer to PR for the airport than much else. Cameron’s challenge at the January meeting on the issue will be to give residents a sense that complaints will not merely be heard but, after years of county inaction, addressed.
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S Barr says
The airport was there long before the housing, yet these complainers still elected to live there!! Uh does that leave much to be discussed?
Capt Jim says
Couldn’t agree more. move nest to an airport and then complain that you hear airplanes!!! Really?
M k says
Sheer ignorance. Another human who has no idea what they are talking about. You don’t have to live with the 450 flight school planes less than 1000 feet, manned by 18 year olds 6 times an hour. Therefore your dinosaur lack of empathy comment is juvenile. Capt of what? Your ego?
Backslapping Commission says
MK: 5000 complaints and counting!
All airport trolls who have been hiding behind Siegers coattails
for decades but now we have uncovered the truth behind their lies,
over 5000 complaints from all over Palm Coast,
this is whyDarryl Hickman and Les Abend left the airport advisory
committee well seasoned pilots and instructors who were trying to help
Sieger be a better person within our community, Sieger was not even
living here back then , he recentlyhad a house built in the C section ,
we hope one of those noisy AirBNBS catches up with him he will be the
first to complain because afterall those BNB’S were there before him.
Sieger also tried to evict Les Abend from being a tennant at the airport as he
attempted to be spiteful with Abend for ousting him to the public as Sieger and
Petito the county administrator were working hand in hand to have Abend
evicted but Sieger lost this case based on Sieger trying to SHUT DOWN
Les Abend’s first amendment rights, so this is who Sieger is and what our
communities are dealing with, he should be fired!
Retired says
We dont live in Palm Coast but in Western Flagler, the Mondex. We have been terroirized by Embry Riddle Planes for 8 years. Have contacted every person we can think of. The last one was with the FFA. We have thousands if low fly overs pictures tail numbers ect. They told me you are in their flight path. Well change it. We need pilots, I said pilots dont fly 100’s of circles day and night over someones house. But there is a shortage, so I guess its ok to be an ass cause there is a shortage. So much for PEACEFUL ENJOYMENT OF YOUR HOME YOU. PUT ALL YOUR MONEY TIME AND CARE INTO SO SOMEONE CAN RUIN IT. AND TO THE ONES WHO SAY JUST MOVE, WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO.
Backslapping Commission says
Retired: This has been the county’s dirty little secret for decades, flight
schools invited in by previous county commissioners some don’t even live
here anymore and the current ones are of no help either, Pennington ran as
one of her platforms that she was going to get on Siegers back about having noise
studies, EPA studies but claims she does not have the votes to accomplish this,
Kim Carney we know will work hard for us, and we are hoping the same from
Pam Richardson, we are also hoping that Greg Hansen will show up for us as
he has in the past been outspoken and has shown support for his citizens who are
affected, Andy Dance also committed to having things done to help us in the 2025
Comprehensive Plan. Keep on making your voices heard as the past and some
of the current commisioners, 2 are leaving, for years want this story to die.
Mk says
They want to hire more pilots at each of these municipal airports. The city blames it on the county. The country blames it on the faa. It is a maddening loop hole. Mike waltz Is pointless as is any senator who is a pilot. They are all criminals. Faa regulations state these flights are not allowed to be over 65 decibels. Yet I have tons of recorded video contradicting this. They are criminals and the only way to stop them is to sue them in civil court.
RetiredRetired says
I will be partof it. They are circleing my hous at 12.02 on a wensday morning.
Greg Bohm says
Fact: the noise levels increase constantly over time. I vote close Flagler airport down and use Daytona. I discussed this with an executive who “happens” to live 10 – 15 miles away and doesn’t have to listen to overflights. The excuse given in “visual flight rules apply,” which I personally know is smoke-and-mirrors. If the airport has no idea of inbound/outbound flights, the airport should be closed down.
Doug says
Yes, there is significant case law to support the residents claims.
Gina Weiss says
Doug: They are flying under the radar appears illegal to us and airport manager does not keep accurate flight records, what kind of BS is that and why does he continue to get away with this, corrupted airport to the core and for the rest of you apathetic and inconsiderate neighbors we didn’t expect a BOCC and other elected officials who were voted in by “We The people” to sneak and invite in 3 flight schools into this airport without publicly addressing the surrounding community and the impact of such a selfish decision let alone no noise abatement considerations especially since they all know that they were kicked out of Volusia County for that very same reason. Once again I know Sullivan and the rest hate to hear this: NO PUBLIC ADDRESS, NO PUBLIC HEARING, NO PUBLIC NOTICE, NO PUBLIC INPUT OR DISCUSSION WITH THE SURROUNDING RESIDENTS. All one has to do is take a look at all their failed ventures and how they attempt to creep in even more in other places like Hammock. MONEY MONEY MONEY BEFORE LIVES should be their motto as they continue to ruin the quality of lives of a whole community.
Gina Weiss says
AND STILL they continue to build and sell homes in this area to people who are not aware of the “FLIGHT SCHOOLS” and the realtors are their asshats, just recently a couple had a home built and sold it within the past 6 months of them living with the noise from the “FLIGHT SCHOOLS.” Another couple just LEFT their home and are renting somewhere else. These officials and airport executives are truly money hungry disgusting vile corrupt people.
Joe Urgese says
I did not realize when I bought a home 20 yrs. ago it was in a pilot training corridor. The noise along the intercostal has not stopped for 20 years. Droning airplanes doing their stalls and maneuvers.
James Hawthorne says
That’s because they weren’t doing this 20 years ago.
Gina Weiss says
James Hawthorne: This airport is doing everything that is in violation of FAA regs, there are no flight patterns for these flight schools in the Master Plan, furthermore they should not be doing touch and goes over our community present innement danger to our lives, they are suppose to be going out to the west where there are open fields, the ATC, county administrator and the airport manager are suppoes to be enforcing this and we also have repeat offenders of some of these flight school instructors and students who are in violation of our airports noise abatement and fly friendly policies and procedures but the airport manager dos not issue violations. Yes we do have noise abatement , it is in the most recent FAA update of 2023 of our noise sensitive community area so the airport manager can issue violations plus ATC can direct these planes out of the airport since they say its a public airport it does not mean that we cannot enforce FAA regs which is not being done. In fact they say anything that goes against our commuunity and not for our community. Many of these people who work at this airport don’t live here and this airport manager does not have any connection with our community, he runs this airport like he is living on a separate island and this is the climate of his staff also, you are only good as your leader.
HayRide says
love how everyone is a self-promoted expert yet not one of ya has a certificate or actual experience
Bedford-Concord says
I live about 1.5 miles from the busiest General Aviation (small aircraft) airport in Massachusetts. The issue in my case and the Flagler case is the flight schools. If it were just destination-based traffic, it would be tolerable. Eliminating flight school activity would lead to a reduction in about 70% of overflights. Flight schools have no inherent right to create a noise nuisance for the community. They can move their operations to an airstrip more removed from residential areas.
Before I purchased the house, I stood outside for a couple hours on separate days to gauge the noise and activity. There was some activity, but tolerable. Now, 3 years later, it has become ridiculously intolerable due to increase in activity of the flight schools. So again, the argument is not about living near an airport when there is occasional traffic. It is the flight schools that take off and land every few minutes conducting touch and go operations and ignoring all noise abatement procedures. They are not welcome neighbors and we will send them packing.
Ashley Martin says
I agree totally. We moved her 20 years ago and it was tolerable — zoning laws were held to legal standards. Then — the last 5 years; someone has done something to let any and ever flight school fly out of Massey Ranch Airpark (X50) Edgewater, FL. early morning to sometimes 1-2 morning. How is this possible Is anyone looking to sue due to getting sick from plane pollution? Also, numerous flight schools received millions (MILLIONS), in stimulus money, and all of a sudden they are all (little city airports), renewing and lengthening there airports and runways — along with buying more planes. How is this possible. OH, buying extra buildings to open more flight training. How is this possible. IS there anything we can do? Numerous little business could not get stimulus and had to close; just not fair. ALSO, check-out the taxes; most all flight schools at the airports pay “0” in taxes. One such flight school should be paying $58,000 and they pay “0”.
Sara Lee says
I live in a new development in Edgewater FL just south of Massey. Lately there are at least 2 different types of planes, I think all total about 4 averaging about 15 take off’s in an hour. All day from 7 am til whenever, in the last few weeks. They take off heading south at full throttle? When they are in front of my house they make a fairly tight turn taking them directly above my house heading east then north, back to the airport for another take off. Why can’t they make their turn toward the West to the I95 interstate? I downloaded a noise measurement app on my phone and the level is between 60 upward to 90 decibels. I had very keen hearing but I am fearful of hearing loss from the planes or from the tv volume level to drown out the planes. BTW I bought my house in the winter when the winds were from the North – no noise to alert me to what I was getting into. What a disappointment. Of course I have called to complain but they don’t care about us or the wildlife or the pollution those old planes are doing to our environment. I wrote to FAA to complain but no help there. I do not know who to complain to but it will continue until enough of us create waves.
Mark Wing says
The airport was built in 1942. Long before the complainers moved there. guess you should have done some research before buying.
Ashley Martin says
The airport in Edgewater was built 1957, ZONEo for small business. The homes built 1988, the flight schools 1999. It was Zoned to support the community; However, with money. The flight schools have taken over. It only started getting out of control last 5-7 years. We need to vote in people that have the best interest of the people. We DON’T even have flight schools at the X50 Massey Ranch; they come from other cities and terrorize our community.
MK says
Again, another ‘this has always been this way uneducated post’ you don’t live here. You don’t know what it’s like to have 18 year old flying less than 1000 feet over your home, breaking FAA regulations of 65 decibels in noise. Wake up to that 7 days a week at 7am until 11pm every night, then comment. Until then troll about topics which effect you.
Valerie says
The airport was there but the flight school activity wasn’t. This is an obvious strawman and if you had a real argument, you wouldn’t be resorting to empty rhetoric like this.
James Hawthorne says
Obvious bad faith argument. The homes were there decades, some near half a century before the flight schools. The airport isn’t the problem. The problem is the abuse of privileges at the public airport by the flight schools.
Gina Weiss says
James Hawthorne : YES, you are exactly right James, it’s is a “BAD FAITH” argument, these individuals are airport trolls who in some way either work there, have their planes there or have family members who are in some capacity involved with this airport, some may even be elected officals disguisig their names and our community and other communities are now in the know about these individuals and their dirty little secrets, they may even be developers who intend to build more housing surrounding this airport, anything to stuff their greedy pockets and not care about the well being and welfare for the greater good. Because they wave the United States flag doesn’t make them a great person or citizen. This old argument that the airport was there before the homes does not stand anymore, we are not living in 1942 anymore, in 1942 there was a war going on and we were training military at this airport, NOT TOTALITARIAN MILITARY of foreign governments with these flight schools, and flight school students are civilians not military they are student pilots that come low and loud at and over our homes like missles. alot of greedy pockets are being filled at the expense of our community’s quality of life.
TF says
There are airports everywhere so the ‘just move’ argument is moot. People have to live somewhere and airports need to be good neighbors. If a municipal airport wants to expand and it is not compatible with the built up community, then it needs to stay the same. Take a look at the flight school flight patterns taking off AT homes, AT the hospital, too low over the high school. Whomever approved this dangerous aviation activity and flight patterns should be fired immediately. The flight school should lose its certification for setting their students and the community at risk. That’s not flight training, that is a pilot mill operating out of greed (taking money no matter who gets hurt). Good flight schools promote safety and compliance with regulations and law. ALL laws and regulations. Just because someone wants to own a business (aviation or otherwise) doesn’t mean that they get to steal someone else’s property rights. That is what we have zoning laws for, to create balance. Forcing these changes without due process, consent and compensation to impacted land owners violates the takings clause of the fifth amendment.
M K says
Residents did not sign up for 450 touch and go flights under 1000 feet and over 65 decibels in noise directly over their homes multiple times an hour starting at 7am. The fools like yourself that comment like this do not have to live with it. No one cares about the scheduled flights. It’s the 18 year old behind those wings that are low enough to see their faces. So, unless it effects you, your comment is baseless, lacks empathy and you have no business on speaking or commenting on a subject that does not effect you. Troll
Percy's mother says
If one moves to Palm Coast for peacefulness, why would one purchase a home near an airport?
It’s only going to get worse, not better.
One can’t expect an economic development engine to tip-toe around those who’ve not done due diligence when it comes to location (i.e., purchasing a home near an airport flight path).
Best thing . . . sell and move to a more peaceful location in Palm Coast. This is the reality of the situation.
Gina Weiss says
To Percy’s mother WOW BIG ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ENGINE with a tower with NO RADAR LOL. Where’s their due diligence! Oh excuse us they don’t have to!
Greg Bohm says
The reality of the situation is that people who work all day at the airport don’t have to listen to constant low-level overflights, and don’t give a s___.
Diane says
Why is anybody even listening to this? These people bought homes right near the airport, and NOW they want to complain about noise? What about people who buy homes next to schools? Can’t they complain about the noise that the children make during recess? And how about those who buy homes near railroad tracks? They will have noise complaints, too!
Why don’t we just ban everything that is non-residential?
Let’s start practicing good old-fashioned common sense here in our hometown.
Dennis says
I feel that people are complaining about the uncontrolled growth in Palm Coast. The city and county seem to be always wanting a larger tax base. I also feel the city and county are destroying the quality of life here. Bigger is not better. If I wanted big, I would have bought in Orlando or Jax. Greed will hurt the area.
flaglerflyer says
People are very ignorant on this issue. The FAA controls the airspace, not the county. The county has zero authority to limit who can use the airport. Mesr. Cameron is being a good diplomat in showing concern and allowing residents to voice their complaints, but he has no recourse to correct this situation. The exception being shutting down the airport.
To Mr. Siciliani, feel free to litigate the matter. I would recommend you do some basic research before spending your hard-earned money. Also, if you do proceed, make sure your attorney has expertise in aviation.
Normond says
Looking back to about 2016 Ormond Beach created a noise abatement advisory board. After about six weeks of meetings, listening to both sides the City brought in a consultant. He basically said, the City does not want to close the airport because it would be expensive. Also the FAA controls the airspace and there is nothing (NOTHING) the City can do about it except what they had done and continue to do and that is ask the flight schools to follow the noise abatement path. About 80% of the schools do not follow the path. That’s because they don’t have to. All they care about is flight time and no consideration for residents below. And if you think Flagler Airport has a lot of Embry Riddle traffic, take a look at Ormond Beach. Ormond Beach airport cannot give any statistics on which companies do take offs and landings, including touch and goes – only the number of activities a day. Both airports are open and can be used any time by any aircraft, even when the towers are closed. Complaining about it to the local government is like pounding your head on the wall. It won’t do any good.
Valerie says
The county is who leases to the flight school. Yes, anyone can use the airstrip but the flightschool accounts for 90% of that traffic. Remove the flight school, and remove 90% of the flights and 100% of the problem.
JF says
Ok people when you moved here to Palm Coast, the Flagler County Airport was already here. It’s like building a home behind a bar and then bitching about the loud music. The airport isn’t going anywhere and if you don’t like it pack your c😊😊p and move elsewhere. Geeze what had become of this town?!.
Capt Jim says
Or like buying a house on Florida Park Drive and bitching about the traffic!
Steve says
You all live by an Airport what did you expect. If you live on a golf course your house will be hit by a ball rest assured. Is it just me . I mean you have or had a choice and you chose where you are.
Old Guy says
Complaints about the noise from the airport have been an issue for many years. Since moving to Palm Coast in 1990, I have seen this area grow tremendously and for some folks any growth or change since their arrival is too much. Flight schools have come and gone as well as other types of aviation operations at our airport. I’m sure it is possible that some type of noise abatement procedures may be helpful but in the end the airport is here to stay.
helen henriksen says
When people moved here in the eighties and 90’s the air port was not like it was now. It had a few flights, that’s it and real estate agents assured it would be no problem, implying it would always be a small private airport, It was for a long time, but with time, the population grows and with it so grows everything else, fire and police departments, traffic, airports and other things.
Alphonse Abonte says
Yes, at one time ALL the airports were small, THEN they got bigger! That how it works.
Capt Jim says
Exactly! Just like at one time Palm Coast was small, then got bigger!
Ray Deveney says
Close down the flight school
CJ says
Hate to be so rude, but you do realize that there is still a pilot shortage that is causing flight delays. Closing flight schools is the last thing we need.
Valerie says
Lol. most of these are foreign pilots and do nothing to reduce the pilot shortage here in the United States. How much do they pay you to post?
John says
You believed the realtor who’s job was to sell you a house ? How would a realtor know the future of the airport ?
Red says
You actually believe that a real estate agent when they told you that the airport would never change? I’m sorry but I can’t stop laughing
HayRide says
I remember in’63 my folks bought a house in a town that had several pig farms all owned by a family and the realtor told my folks that the pig farms were shutting down, well yup the farms are still there.
Backslapping Commission says
Hay Ride: LOL love how you compared the airport to a pig farm, you are right
on point! Except the pigs are cleaner and not dropping poison leaded fuel
over our communities and into our water supply as the hungry pig flight school
take in millions while poisoning us.
Realistic Person says
I’m pretty sure if I lived that close to an airport that I would expect noise. I am sure it is annoying, however expecting an airport to not have plane traffic is like having a highway and no car or truck traffic….. due diligence in picking a location for your home….
Missy says
You’re unrealistic. An airport with airplane traffic is okay. What’s not okay are the flight school planes endlessly circling the airport with their antiquated pieces of old $hit they use for schooling. They should be made to go out over the ocean or the Everglades for practice flying where people don’t live. They are noise pollution.
D. W. says
I’m confused. You purchase a home near an airport and then complain about the noise? Yes the flight school is only been there for a few years. But – you – bought – a – home – near – an – airport. 🤔
SMC says
Get help from professionals. There is an organization, “Noise Free America” that has lots of help with understanding how to fight noise. Airplane / Motorcycle / Auto / Truck / etc.. Resources in the Fight for Peace and Quiet. Check out some of their information: https://noisefree.org/noise-health/ – – Airplane Noise: https://noisefree.org/sources-of-noise/airplane-noise/
Chicken Wing says
I don’t believe most of the first commenter’s even read the article. Yes, the airport was here, but the amount of flight traffic or schools allowed to use it weren’t. Property values may have gone up but the quality of life went down. Not a good selling point if one is trying to move. Spruce creek fly’in in port orange doesn’t even have to deal with what we have too and they’re a gated fly’in community!
flaglerflyer says
Spruce Creek is a private airport and they get to choose who can use it (no flight schools). Flagler County Airport is a public airport and the FAA controls who can use it (just about anyone).
Jason says
I contacted an FAA representative in Orlando. The FAA does not control the flight operations at the airport. In fact the representative told me the only time they get involved with the airport is when someone reports a unsafe issue or accident. If you read the rules and regulations of the airport it states and I quote “The Flagler Executive Airport is a county owned, public use, general aviation airport that is operated and maintained under the Flagler County Board of County Commissioners.
flaglerflyer says
Welcome to the world of the FAA! What they told you is absolutely correct. But the FAA controls the airspace meaning their rules control ever single plane that takes-off and lands at the airport (as well as every other public airport in the USA). The county is powerless to prohibit planes from taking-off or landing at the airport.
James Hawthorne says
Not true. The county can create a mandatory noise abatement ordinance and, if approved by the FAA, then the abatement ordinance is enforceable by the county.
Gina Weiss says
James Hawthorne: Thy keep on pointing fingers at each other, we do have noise abatement ordinance approved by the FAA, they don’t want people who is affected to know this, they don’t enforce it, they call it voluntary and change the FAA verbiage to their convenience, theu tell people , Oh, it’s voluntary and we can’t enforce it, once again even if it was “voluntary”, it does not mean that they can’t do anything, “voluntary” according to FAA regs means that the FAA give them time to correct problems before they issue violations, they turn this mening around not to do anything. Members of the FCBOCC can enforce this but some of the old members and past members never did and this became the climate of the FCBOCC but now things have changed since we voted out one of the previous airport crony’s and we not have a new commissioner we got elected that is for the people and we do have some commissioners who are following in suit.
Gina Weiss says
That’s the trouble with some today, people don’t take the time to read and do some research, instead they resort to name calling, mocking and insulting people with grave concerns. the key words in the article to the people who are calling other people stupid are INTOLERABLE NOISE FROM FLIGHT SCHOOLS. Please come to the next meeting and listen to the voice of the people who live in this area and stop being mean and self centered.When these flight schools are in full swing sounds like we are being attacked every 40 seconds from 7:00 AM to wel into evening hours, not good for anyone as we are a community composed of vets, policemen, firemen, retirees, young families and children. ware looking for logical and sensible solutions so that we can live our lives to the fullest like all of you. These flight schools account for 60-80% of local air traffic noise with their touch and go flights. The airport officials can limit these flights, operate at normal hours, adjust traffic patterns-after all we should share the wealth -maybe some can fly over your homes, and the planes can fly at higher altitudes-this is all called voluntary noise abatement. This airports officials expansion meant more corporate money tenants for them as they were surely not concerned about the people in the surrounding community. So stop with the WITCH HUNT we are not trying to limit your sport!
Doug Markham says
Mrs. Weiss, can you please give an update on this matter. You are correct about people who don’t read or aren’t affected by an issue. They just talk.
Gina Weiss says
Doug Markham: Here is the update, there is going to be a very important airport workshop held somewhere between end of June and beginning of July, exact date not set yet, keep checking the FCBOCC meetings and agendas, we urge all who is affected in one way or the other to attend this meeting, I am the advocate for our Quail Hollow Community for airplane and flight school traffic and advocate as a leasion for between our community and the FCBOCC.
James Hawthorne says
They know they’re arguing in bad faith.
Gina Weiss says
James Hawthorne: Airport trolls they are everywhere as I am being told by an airport attorney, special interest groups, developers with their “big economic engines” rhetoric, the airport is a small county airport, a donut hole in the middle of Palm Coast, people trying to make blood money off the backs of blue collar workers, and the person who mentioned that we bought our homes “cheap”, well mr. big spender to some people who make a certain income that’s all the money they have and to those people their homes are not cheap, their money cost and means to them just as much as your big income and your big expensive home, shame on you for that aweful remark, so elitist of you, and by the way there are homes now bint built in our community that go beyond a quarter of a mil and up, my how things have changed since your CHEAP remark, do you think that people who are puttin their life savings in their homes to have them built are going to put up with hundreds of flight schools pouring into our little county airport?
Charlene says
Can’t stop progress plus beautiful Palm Coast is just growing and taking away the nature and beauty. As they say. Don’t like it LEAVE!!!!
Gina Weiss says
As the airport expands planes flight school planes will soon be soaring over your neighborhoods too!
ME says
Perfectly said! Thank You!! Life was Different when there was only one flight school and it This airport was always advertised as an executive airport and that’s when most people bought their homes around this airport and now all the sudden there’s 5 to 6 different flight schools operating out of there and I can guarantee you none of the realtors of telling prospective buyers that it’s a flight school and not an executive airport, but thank you for your input
Chicken Wing says
Can we also be alerted as to when the next meeting is taking place? I’d like to also complain about the deliberate and repeated, almost menacing low flying that takes place out in western Bunnell and where my family lives in the L section. It may sound petty, but I’m pretty sure some of the things I’ve caught on video is against regulation.
flaglerflyer says
West of Bunnell is a designated flight training. This includes stalls, emergency landings, steep turns, etc… You can send your footage to the FAA (FSDO office in Orlando) and they provide you a response.
Gina Weiss says
Chicken Wing: There are certain areas west of Bunnell that are designated areas for these flight villians to practice but not over homes, they are suppose to practice over open air spaces and they are suppose to have a fight tract and pattern and schedule that the public can view but our airport manager does not do what he is suppose to do, this is all suppose to be in the airports Master Plan but it’s not, this airport manager was in violation of not keeping accurate airport documentation by his own advisory committee which was disbanded by Jerry Cameron for obvious reasons of not wanting the public to have transparency. There are numerous FAA regs that this airport is in violation with, since this airport receives deral funding from the FAA they are suppose to abide by the FAA rules and regs, they don’t want the public to know this but the FAA is more on the public side when it comes to safety, this airport wants to keep us out of the know.
Gina Weiss says
Chicken wing: Update: A meeting is going to take place sometime between the end of June or beginning of July 2023, you can check with the FCBOCC upcoming meetnings and workshops, this is an important meeting and I urge you and all who is affected to attend this meeting. If no one does anything these flight schools will continue to plaque our community, Roy Sieger receives grants from the FAA and must abide by FAA rules and regs which ho is out of compliance, the FAA is on the communities side when it comes to safety but the airport manager and its cronies don’t want the public to know this. The flight schools are suppose to provide flight tracks and records and schedules, and this is suppose to be in the Master Plan and it;s not, there are so many things wrong with this airport.
WeLoveAviation says
Please provide source material for these regulations. Which FAA manuals, memos are documents are you getting this from?
Also, the aircraft are tracked via ADSB and FAA Radar coverage as well as filed VFR flight plans. What evidence do you have that they are out of compliance?
And Gina, You have complained over and over again about basic pattern work around the Airport. They are absolutely allowed to conduct pattern work around the airport, including over homes providing they maintain Class D Airspace requirements, which they do.
I am not sure when you are going to get it through your head that YOU moved into a home beside an Airport…You chose where you moved to, this Airport has been in Flagler since WWII and the flight operations have not significantly changed in the last 15 years, except to get more organized with the addition of the Control Tower.
Other than during Airshows and Events, there are no aerobatics at the airport, there are training operations that would be restricted within a Class Delta airspace and most of what you and those who oppose the airport are saying is out of either pure ignorance or only understanding a fraction of the rules and trying to use that in a discussion…which is really worse than ignorance.
You all chose to live in Florida which is a major general aviation hub…You all chose to move in next to an active Airport which is piss poor planning on your part if you cannot handle the environment…You all choose to stay and complain, even after years of trying to get the airport closed, Roy fired, calling the tower with your insults and threats, coming to the tower and screaming at the controllers thinking THAT is a good idea, etc….And yet, the airport remains open, it is in compliance with the rules as the FAA has found again and again, the Controllers are some of the best you will ever have (You have to be to get qualified there) and all you are doing is making yourselves look foolish by not taking accountability for your choices.
You are not Princes and Princesses (thus not entitled to protected airspace over your home), your dog’s PTSD was not caused by aviation, the airport was not hidden from you when you bought your home and if you neglected to investigate that is on you… When will you people grow up? If you don’t like it…Sell your house and move…The market right now values your home most assuredly higher than when you bought it…Make some money and be on your way?
Reading these posts, I have never seen so many overly entitled supposedly adults complaining about their own choices of residence in my entire life. Did no one ever impress upon you that the world doesn’t revolve around you?
Please stop crying
Hmmm says
I feel the same way about this as i do with the florida park dr complaints. They choose to live on a main road, and these people choose to live next to an airport. Deal with it!! The FPDr thing was entertained, and opened the door for all of the cry babies. I dont have these complaints, because when i was looking to buy a house, i excluded streets and areas from my search. Years ago, traffic was less on FPD, but it was always a main road. Same for the airport.
Avoid Palm Coast and Ormond like the plague says
I lived about 11 miles from Palm Coast Airport and 7 miles from Ormond and for 3 years hardly ever saw an airplane around our home. That all changed and the last 2 years have had a constant stream of loud, low flying Embry Riddle planes deciding to make our area their training ground. They would fly over and over our home at all hours. After speaking with airport managers and getting no help from them, and tired of dealing with the noise for so long we got smart, sold and left the area. Life is to short the airports aren’t going to change. I know quite a few others that are tired of it and are selling and leaving too. I’ve lived in many large cities in Florida and never have experienced anything like this ever. If you like to live in peace and quiet don’t live in Palm Coast, Ormond Beach, or Daytona.
jack howell says
Sympathy is near stupidy in the dictionary! I am so, so tired of hearing this complaint by folks who bought their home near the airport. You obviously did not do your due diligence about the county and the airport before you purchased your house. Why should I limit my flying business because you did not do your homework before purchasing your property? That error in judgment sir is on you!
Who are you to restrict my flying time? Please keep in mind Mr. Siciliani that the FAA does not restrict my flying in THEIR airspace as long as I follow their rules and regulations. My whole life has been focused on aviation. That was my career path. I even graduated from the US Navy Fighter Weapons School (Top Gun) and have received several national aviation and aerospace awards. I own two planes and lease a third at the airport. I rent a hangar and office spaces and consider myself a very good tenant (12 years) and business generator to the economy of the county and Palm Coast. So I would advise you Mr. Siciliani to go ahead and waste your money on a frivolous lawsuit if you feel you must. Remember, the residents of nearby Dulles Airport, in Northern Virginia, tried to do the same thing. Now that said, I do agree on a workable and fair noise abatement plan. But, you are not going to stop my flying!
Barry Henderson says
Thank you for your service, but your Top Gun has nothing to do with the airport discussion. Who cares?
I slept at a Holiday Inn!
Jack Howell says
My point is that I am a professional aviator! I will continue to exercise my freedom to fly whenever I want. I hope you had a nice time at the Holiday Inn.
Gina Weiss says
To Barry Henderson: I’m with you Barry, but I’d much rather have a professional aviator flying over my home than flight schools students flying without radar every 30 sec. daily. However it is clear judging from some of these inconsiderate self serving creepy remarks which are coming from the flight school students themselves hiding their names , we are wise to that that trick also. And by the way if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle which also has nothing to do with the discussion.
Jimbo99 says
I think it’s disingenuous to think residential property values around an airport ever increase. The wealthier will fly in, but they’re going to want intracoastal & beach properties. There is zero benefit to higher traffic & noise. Commercial property perhaps, it’s traffic driven and revenue based from sales from that traffic. Same goes with properties next to a rail road or interstate roads. One simply can’t expect residential to increase in value when the area has higher safety risks. Infrastructure gains of shopping options brings more traffic, potential for higher crime rates and traffic accidents. There’s a “right” size for everything, and at certain point it’s too much for the area. One might even perceive the residential as developer greed to populate that many closer to an airport that will only grow with increased travel and population growth. I lived near a smaller airport in South Miami, F, it hardly increased my property value when I sold it and relocated. They built commercial shopping around it and that increased population & traffic made any commute gridlock misery.
Even the residential area where I live in Palm Coast, more duplexes built and that’s going to decrease my property value. Duplexes, like apartments here are rentals, that constant transient population don’t improve the neighborhood. With transient residential, the turnover rate and the curb constantly has furnitures that are curbside and the neighborhood looks like a dump. If there’s a wooded vacant lot it becomes a trash dump site. I’ve noticed more FCSO activity in the neighborhood, they’re here for a reason and it isn’t to/doesn’t improve the area. Higher crime rates for domestic issues is not a plus. Just yesterday I had to clean up broken glass in the street right in front of my house. This should never happen in a residential area considering it was a Vodka bottle someone had thrown out of their car driving thru the area, so there is going to be alcohol & drug abuse increases. In a neighboring county where I once lived very recently, I would routinely find used syringes & needles in the swales & streets there. With renters, there it’s more likely the swale parking issues arise because there are too many people living in the dwelling. Urban & rural sprawl occurs, properties are a dwelling and the entire front yard is a concrete slab with 4+ cars parked in driveways & swale. 15+ years ago, property bought to retire in, is now undesirable from development. And the local government & real estate industry is great at inflating property values, try realizing that “expert” assessed gain from an actual buyer ?
Concerned Citizen says
While we are complaining. I would like to complain about everything. Even the complaining of complaining makes me want to complain. And I’m sure someone will want to complain that I’m complaining.
Curmudgeon says
I have to agree with you. Lots of ignorance out there surrounding this issue. Most of it is evident by some who posted so far. “ You bought near an airport what did you expect.” That is a rational idea and it’s safe to say that many people who live around the airport managed their expectations about the amount of general aviation in the area before purchasing. The normal traffic is quite tolerable.
It would seem that the crux of the argument is the relentless pounding of the neighborhoods and businesses from the flight schools doing touch and gos all morning, noon, night and up to and past midnight. We understand the students need to “get time,” but at what cost? It seems that the concern is not over the general aviation community that uses the airport. It is the students that are stacked up six deep in the delta taking off at 30 second to one minute intervals, 200’ off the deck at full power screaming over our residential and commercial properties. It seems to be a dangerous combination: Student pilots being taught by instructors who were just recently students, flying in close proximity to each other in airspace controlled by a tower with no radar. Tune into the Unicom and listen sometime, it’s tedious. It’s just a matter of time before there is a preventable incident.
The local school and the university in Daytona are the two main flight schools that use our airport. The difference is that the university is trying to be a good neighbor. The site based school and their Daytona affiliates who share the same name, treat our County as a playground with no regard for the residents. The schools and instructors need to be ambassadors for their industry and instill value in their students. The industry is facing a pilot shortage, we understand the urgency for training. AOPA urges pilots to follow noise abatement procedures to be good neighbors to maintain a positive image for the industry.
It’s true the County does not have the authority to impose rules in regards to the operation of aircraft during flight. However the schools do have the authority and responsibility to manage their instructors, students, schedules and operations as they affect the community. The schools should be held accountable for their actions as it relates to the abuse of the airspace over Flagler County. It would be prudent for the Flagler BoCC to address the issue of flight school operations. If the school changed its behaviors the whole situation would become more tenable.
We do love our airport. The airport manager has done a great job bringing in revenue and making improvements. How much of that revenue was generated by general aviation and tenants vs. the site based school. Likewise what does the County gain from all the other schools flying in to use the airspace? The majority are flying back home to top off their tanks.
WeLoveAviation says
The Flight Schools have been here for Decades? They didn’t just show up? Your initial point was correct. People bought a home near an Airport that has always been busy…They moved to Florida from places where general aviation is not prevalent and they chose poorly if they do not like airport noise.
Jason says
The FAA does not control the Flagler County Airport. I spoke with a FAA representative in Orlando and they told me the airport traffic is controlled by the director and staff at the airport. They also told me the only time the FAA gets involved with the airport is when an unsafe issue or accident is reported. If you read the airports rules and regulation it states and I quote “The Flagler Executive Airport is a county-owned, public use, general aviation airport that is operated and maintained under the Flagler County Board of County Commissioners.” This gives the commissioners the authority to regulate the amount of flight school traffic among other operations at the airport. This is the number to the FAA in Orlando 407-487-7000.
WeLoveAviation says
The airport is County owned but it is also controlled by a FCT or Federal Contract Tower which reports directly to the FAA on operations, accidents, incidents and deviations…And those guys in the tower bust their ass to protect you people and keep the flying safe….And all you folks do is call them with threats, insults and complaints. Hell, some of you even have the balls to drive over with your threats and insults. Its like a bad episode of Jerry Springer the way some of you people act.
Having worked there in the past, and as I no longer do I have no issue telling you what I think…The residents surrounding the airport are generally good folks. However, a certain loud minority of you are over entitled debutantes who think that your piss poor planning of home choice means that everything should shut down to make you happy. You try to use ridiculous exaggerations and hell that one guy even tried to use zoomed in and sped up video footage to say the airplanes were flying lower and faster than they should be to get a point across…I guess time works faster at his home because when folks pointed out the clock on his video was moving faster than it should, he did not have an answer.
The airport is busy. I worked at Flagler for 10 plus years. It was busy when I got there in 2011, it was busy every year that I was there until I left a year and a half ago. I am sure it is still busy now. And it is evident those of you, like Gina Weiss, who cannot get it through your head that the airport was here before you and it will be here after you are simply unable to accept that you made a bad choice of moving near a very active airport. It is also evident that most of you have zero clue how aviation works…How seasonal weather flight patterns work, How Class Delta operations work, How Air Traffic Control works and really how anything that pertains to what you are bitching about works…You are not making good points when you spit out half or less accurate information…You just sound stupid…And when you complain about AIRCRAFT NOISE around an AIRPORT…You sound much worse.
The answer is simple…You don’t like living around an airport that has been there since WWII? Take advantage of housing prices and sell. Move somewhere quiet where folks do not have to endure your inability to take responsibility for your choices.
Cheers!
Tbarry says
Propose to close down the airport and make it section 8 housing ! See how fast they find the airport acceptable .
Gina Weiss says
All you people who are calling us stupid for purchasing a home close to an airport please come to the next meeting. I can’t stand the ignorance of people who do not do their homework and shoot off their mouths. I purchased my home 15 years ago and yes I did know it was close to an airport. The key words in the title is INTOLERABLE NOISE FROM FLIGHT SCHOOLS which were not here 15 years ago therefore we had normal tolerable air traffic noise. I invite all of you to our homes when these flight schools are in full swing and you tell me, sounds like we are being attacked every 40 seconds, they fly very low and one cannot even hear a conservation in a household,
plus these flight schools continue beyond the normal hours of flight school operations, we have proof of this. We know that the airport is not going to go away, we are sensible people who are trying to work out logical solutions to the air traffic noise from the flight schools and we have attempted on numerous occasions to speak with people who run the flight schools and who run the airport and all they have done is to mock and disrespect our community which comprises veterans, retirees, and young families with children. The flight schools can use noise abatement and limit the touch and go’s of flight schools taking off and landing which accounts for 60-80% of the noise. the airport can also adjust their traffic patterns and possibly have some of these planes soar over your homes. The planes can also fly at higher altitudes -this is all called voluntary noise abatement. We all want to grow with the community and all of us want the community to grow however community growth should not take advantage of peoples mental and physical well-being. Big economic engines have also destroyed and polluted communities. It has become quite obvious that these big economic engines means more corporate money tenants for the people who operate this airport without taking into consideration the residents who live in the surrounding areas of the airport. Whatever happened to the notion that Palm Coast was built on the premise of a eco friendly relaxing environment with pristine forest, clean waterways and pure beaches, all of which is highlighted constantly in it The Palm Coast Newsletter! I guess now our new pitch to the public could be come to our noisy polluted community or how about stay away from that part and just do your business not where the airport exist, how would that workout for all of you.
Kendall says
There were indeed flight schools here 15 years ago. There has been flight training here for decades. The Mudrys even did acrobatic flight training in the 90s.
Gina Weiss says
I guarantee that it was not to the extent of what is going on now-constant FLIGHT SCHOOL STUDENTS learning to fly with no radar, touch and go flights less than every 30-40 sec. from 7:00 am – 10:oo pm daily, they even did this last Easter Sunday totally disrespecting one the most holy Christian holidays, shame on them, people could not enjoy their holiday.
James Hawthorne says
Small flight schools. The current flight schools have hundreds of students. “A flight school” is not the same as “the flight schools” currently abusing their privileges. If you honestly weren’t doing anything wrong, you wouldn’t need to twist words and argue in bad faith like this. You know you’re wrong here, you just don’t care. Buddy, I hope you’re a christian because people like you deserve to burn in hell.
Gina Weiss says
James Hawthorne: Amen, you said it all to that one!
Percy's mother says
Gina
Sell . . . and move on in life.
No, you shouldn’t have to. But that’s the reality. You live near an airport for God’s sake.
Gina Weiss says
Percy’s mother
Why in the world would you make such a hardcore statement like that, have you read the concerns of the people who live in these sections, we love our airport and airport staff, its the flight schools that are taking advantage of us, by the way how is an airport growing without any radar! Sounds scary to me. I also believe in sharing the wealth of a larger airport which can also mean more flight school planes zooming over your home soon as they would have to spread out their air space and traffic patterns.
Daniel Croft says
Lol. This is just like my hometown of New Orleans. All the rich out of towners moved to the French Quarter and then try to pass noise ordinance against music…. HaHaHa . Try to soften a trombone. Try to soften a plane. Over a hundred musicians marched on city hall . Thankfully it didn’t pass. It’s New Orleans …
Best start a search for the latest ear muffs.
jack howell says
Yeah, you are right! I’m from New Orleans and agree with you 100%
Flagler Pilot says says
Poor Riddle they get blamed for everything. I believe they actually haven’t been doing much flying at Flagler compared to six or nine months ago.
Tired of the arrogance says
I think it would go a long way if the people with complaints were met with empathy as opposed to Roy’s sarcasm and obvious lack of concern for these people. I agree that they chose to live near an airport and that’s unfortunate, but why is nobody addressing the arrogant manner with which he speaks to the taxpayers of this county?
Derrick Redder says
I don’t live by the airport but west of Bell Terre and Whitvire every Sun your backyard peace that you normally sacrificed for the neighbors lawnmower is now disturbed by these planes constantly looping through the air above. Put a few pfds on and practice over the dam ocean or over the vast miles of timberlands Ranieer owns
America_Loves_Aviation says
Because the comments and complaints are little more than bitching and whining about poor decisions made by those whining and complaining? Sympathy/empathy is only owed to someone in a sympathetic/empathetic situation…someone moving next to an airport and then starting a campaign to remove the airplanes, jobs and revenue…because of their poor decisions…doesn’t not garner sympathy nor empathy…
America_Loves_Aviation says
*Does not garner sympathy nor empathy
Trailer Bob says
Really??? Wow, someone is upset here. I have lived in deserts, tropics, country and city. This is sort of like a board game for supposedly intelligent adults. You look at the board, you understand that the city you are looking to live in is growing rapidly, and with the growth there will be changes…and usually not for the best in my mind and comfort.
So unhappy as you may be due to the planes (which also fly over my house all day and practice maneuvers), Populations grow, commerce expands, traffic gets worse, no little manufactured mini-city can please every property owner once it ” isn’t exactly like it was when I moved in here twenty years ago”.
Your homes in the area we are speaking of have appreciated very well. So you can move somewhere else (even Palm Coast) or stay here and complain. I now the potential of an airport’s growth and would NEVER move next to one. So sorry, you are now living with your decisions. BTW, for the record, I would never live anywhere in Palm Coast. But when I moved here I took off the blinders and chose the country. There is room out here, but then you would have to give up all the amenities of living in a concrete jungle with insane traffic and fake Italian food…lol
Capt GrayBeard says
Only way I know how to end the airport noise is to dig up the runway or destroy it so planes can’t land or takeoff. Might be a bit drastic but that’s how I remember it was done in Vietnam. I imagine it will still work today. And you could probably get the same answer from ” To Gun ” commenter earlier. Always good to see ALL the possible answers to problems like these.
Your Welcome:
And please remember tohave your pets spayed or neutered and always pee down wind !!!!
Red says
Apparently, after scrolling through the comments, a prevailing opinion here of the people who are angry is the classic, not in my backyard. The airport was there practically from the Inception of Palm Coast. When we purchased our home we did extensive research before selecting an area in which we would like to live. We looked at home near the airport and specifically did not buy one because of their proximity to the airport.
Bill says
Actually the Airport was here some 50 YEARS before the city of Palm coast.
Red says
It is a final comment oh, those of you complaining about the noise living near the airport should have the fabulous experience AB living in the flight path of the Air National Guard A-10 Warthogs when they are getting ready to deploy overseas. It’s really awesome when they barely clear your roof and everything in your house rattles. Pretty sure a Piper Cub doesn’t do that.
Ch says
I definitely agree with most but if you chose to purchase a home next to an airport you have to assume at some point in time air traffic will one day become more than what it is in that moment if it is not already a busy airport when you’re purchasing a home near one.
However what is frustrating is the overbuilding of homes and the amount of wildlife presence that has been disappearing over the years
Willy Boy says
St. Simons Island. Airport slap in the middle of town. Executive jets constant. High dollar real estate. Few complaints. Go figure. They do bitch about that big ROLO ship rolled over in the channel, though.
palmcoaster says
Former Congressman Mica that will visit Flagler County today could come up with some ideas regarding this issue if asked as former Chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee overseeing development of federal policy and projects related to aviation, maritime, highways and bridges, railroads and more. “Congressman Mica will share his insights during the Flagler Tiger Bay Club’s December meeting, with a question and answer session to follow for members”. I do not believe the residents complaining about the noise and safety concern expect the airport shut down or reduce the right of any pilot to his/her flight time, space or use of aircraft.
Many years ago when they started the flight schools in the airport I contacted him, the FAA in Jacksonville and the FCBOCC that approved the flight schools, over aircraft doing stunts above our homes 10 miles away from the airport and then… no more nuisance. I still have the reply letter received from those entities. Also many years ago I had a pilot acquaintance that loved to show off his stunts over our homes when I was a child…we loved the sight as kids but he also died in his Cessna. I didn’t buy or I would not live by an airport as just look at the accidents and serious emergency landings in PCP, Rte 100 and 305 plus the tragic aircrafts down as well. I have faith that some noise reduction, etc. requested by these residents could be kindly compromised. I do not think they intent to shut down the airport or anyone’s rights to fly. Lets try a little kindness…
Retired says
We don’t live in Palm Coast we live in the Mondex. Bought our property in 09 and started building on it 2 years ago. It’s our retirement home.Like most of the people near the airport we have complained to every faa employee we can find. Provided tail numbers for the planes,(yes they fly that low) They start as early as 6:30 and fly till 8-9 at night. If you are outside the circle several times. It’s like they are a spy plane. We were told our home was a designated reference point. They fly so low you can see the pilot. We have been passed off to at least 6 people. I also would like to go to the next meeting and If lawsuit starts I want to be in on it. Tail numbers for these nucent terrorist are N3977, N454er. They purposely drive you crazy everyday. They are brave up in the sky. Nothing but bullies. I’ve ask for a 5mile buffer but they fly around the edges then coast in low and gas it. Sometimes the sudden noise make you jump.
Bill says
@ Retired
First the Mondex is outside of the Airspace under control of the Flagler Aircraft control tower. So the tower?airport has NO say in anything going on there. Next the two planes you identify the “nucent terrorist are N3977, N454er” Are NOT based at Flager one is from Daytona and the other in California.
Outsider says
The plaintiff is lying. I worked at the airport in the late ’80’s and early ’90’s. I conducted traffic counts several days a week, and even back then the operations were around 400 to 500 per day, mostly from Embry-Riddle and other Daytona flight schools. Now, my aviation career is based in another state, so the local airport doesn’t affect my job, but it is true a viable airport with proper services is critical for the economic development of an area. If the county wants me as a witness, feel free to contact me through Flagler Live, who I give permission to give them my email address.
Joe Urgese says
I live near the ICW. Been here 20 years. This the noisiest place I have ever experienced. Planes are above doing stalls and whatever. They are here before sunrise and are still buzzing at 10PM.
Janidan says
If your serious about this issue of airport noise, first get yourself on the airport board. From that position you will better understand how complex noise can be. The airport, as well as many in Florida are Federally owned, not likely you will succeed in closing it, (ask someone near the Naples airport). Ive flown into thousands of airports in my career and there are ways to lessen the airport’s impact. Look into: noise abatement procedures, limited hours, landing fees, handling fees, ramp fees etc.
deb says
You knew when you moved into your home or that rental that you knew the airport was close. Its life, you made the choice. Just like living at the beach, its a choice. So don’t blame the airport or the county or the city.
oldtimer says
I used to live near the railroad tracks and I complained, can you believe they wouldn’t move the trains?
For The People says
@Colonel, try not to be so cocky and arrogant about your point of view. There is plenty of presedence on airport noise abatement, with many judgements and settlements siding with the people (those people you served).
Reference locally Cecil, Herlong and Craig in Jax. Money and business doesn’t always win, and this isn’t a military installation. Its not quite as cut and dry as you unempathatically spewed.
I believe there is a happy medium here and time restrictions certainly sound reasonable, public service assets excluded of course. Litigation benefits no one in the end except for the litigators.
Z-Section Homeowner says
We’re in a fantastic location, though. Growth is going to happen. Belle Terre BLVD is going to get more busy, and we’ll be hearing more traffic. I hear more sirens and cars than planes, and we love the planes. We get a front row seat to air shows. We have to look at the fact that we have these properties right on the outskirts of development that’s happening.
This area used to be Bunnell, and Palm Coast may have been originally marketed as a retirement community, but development plans have not been consistent with that. Brace yourselves, Palm Coasters, you’re going to see city-like development. Your property values are going to increase, traffic is going to get more congested, and young people are going to be living here. If you don’t believe me, think about what’s already happened! I remember when driving down Belle Terre Parkway from Bunnell to Palm Coast Parkway was a quite, quick ride.
There will be pretty, multi-family housing developments–the sort we wished existed when we graduated high school in the 90’s so we could live here and develop careers here in our home town. The airport traffic is going to increase and our local economy is going to be stronger. You’ll be hearing construction, sirens, planes, and seeing more people. There are exciting things happening, and it does take some time, but if you hold on to this notion of a quaint community, you’ll be disappointed. Hopefully you can come around to the progress.
The good news is Palm Coast is pretty and will find a way to keep the heart of what makes Palm Coast special–even if it’s not quite the “retirement community” that was sold to people in the past. And you’re likely sitting on Boardwalk and Park Place of Palm Coast with Palm Coast’s Innovation District two minutes away.
Mary Fusco says
Z-Section homeowner. I would think there are plenty of younger families living here considering the number of schools we currently have. Sorry, but I have been here since 1999 and have failed to see exactly what careers are available to young people. Fast food and junk stores are not a career. Will PC have enough medical facilities and doctors for an influx of people. As it is, this hospital is a joke. Anyone needing medical care has to travel to Gainsville or JAX. What good is city-like development if PC cannot accommodate the influx of people? There is nothing wrong with a quaint community. PC is and will remain a bedroom community which means that people will have to commute to their jobs. It is what it is. The days of living 10 minutes from home to job are no longer. Bottom line is that the decisions have already been made. Only time will tell.
Gym Rut says
I have a solution. Don’t look up, and put your dam ear plugs in!!!
Retired says
For the person who comments on my remarks. Thanks for flying over my house 3x in a low circle and adding to my video files. Guy that wants to Sue I’m on board contact me.
Bill says
I agree that it is NOT the fault of any but those who CHOSE to move next to a airport for their discomfort of hearing airplanes. Why did yo buy next to a airport in the first place?? If you thought it would NEVER grow or get busier that again is on you. IMO most likely you bought there because it was CHEAPER then a comparable home/land that is NOT right next to a Airport.
Gina Weiss says
Bill, once again did you READ what we are asking for, we are not asking for the airport to be shut down.What we want is for the flight schools and the flight school instructors to respect our community and stop with the kamikaze touch and goes every 30 sec flying low to our homes daily throughout the day and night time, please stop misconstruing the story people, I’m sure you would want the same for you and your families, and stop stop with your CHEAP insults!
America_Loves_Aviation says
Kamikaze touch and goes every 30 seconds?
Seeing as most of these aircraft at flying at least a mile apart and only flying about 60-70 mph on final…you seem to be exaggerating a bit. Not to mention, most of these aircraft are within the airfield boundary when they are on decent to the runway…it really does appear that you are simply complaining about normal Air Traffic Pattern Work…
Gina Weiss says
To Bill: Guess what Bill we have proof!
America_Loves_Aviation says
you have proof of constant and consistent aircraft traffic, 30 seconds apart, on a daily basis, over an extended period?
Man, Flagler must be lowballing their numbers…because math and runways usage does not support your claims ma’am…seems maybe you are exaggerating a bit…
At that pace…Flagler would be pushing 1, 226, 400 ops per year…which would be 410, 260 more than Atlanta Hartsfield Airport…the busiest airport in the world…
Irwin Fletcher says
It must be tough living in such a literal world ALA. It would appear that Ms. Weiss may be exaggerating a little but if you have been in the area, the traffic is unbearable for residents and local businesses. Your attention to the data is impressive yet your grasp on the issue is quite distorted. It sounds like you have flown at one time so I assume you have been in the pattern a time or two. I would expect you to know better and not pick a fight with a frustrated resident under the sky you fly in. Swing by the field someday with a stopwatch and see for yourself. Our airport was the busiest of its size last month for a reason. Come on, let’s help these folks rather than bash them.
I agree that Riddle is getting a bum rap in this article, their administration is at least trying. They are not the real culprit, the new site based low budget flight school is. They are certainly not a community friendly local business. A picture of their logo should have been used.
America_Loves_Aviation says
“Exaggerating a little”? How about exaggerating to the tune of over a million plus operations a year? That sort of frantic, emotional exaggeration…when allowed to sit and fester with folks thinking it is real…is beyond dangerous. Letting it stand is irresponsible.
It is not picking a fight…its squashing an argument that has gone on too long. These folks make it seem like Flagler has only just gotten busy. This field has been a bee hive for decades…But according to them, this place was no busier than a grass field when they moved here…now though, oh man, it is Laguardia! The fact is, when the tower opened, the daily counts regularly climbed above 1000 ops per day…that was 10 years ago…not so much today with pattern restrictions and full stop taxi backs being the norm for many of the users…
This discussion is not about climbing pilot usage nor the expansion of the airport…the 500 feet added onto 11/29 means nothing to Cessnas and Twinstars which are the most common pattern participants…and the numbers have been fairly steady since the field opened with only one year being low because of construction (Which seems to be the year that folks bought at Flagler…because that is the only year traffic was out of the top 5…but still top 10)…This discussion is about an entitled group of residents who moved next door to an airport and did not do their research before purchasing/building a home. This discussion is about folks who want to claim dog PTSD as a reason to restrict flying to Monday-Friday 8 AM-5PM because they feel they have a right to control something that has been here longer than most of them have been alive and definitely longer than they have lived here. This discussion is about home owners not taking responsibility for their choices and acting like adults…but instead stamping their feet and demanding their way like petulant children while throwing out arguments like “The airport was not this busy before” or “airplanes are making kamikaze approaches every 30 seconds from daylight to dark”…
And so you understand Irwin, I am a resident. I have been in aviation for over 20 years. I also have been to the tower many times and experienced what the Air Traffic Controllers deal with on a daily basis. Not only the pilots and traffic level , but residents calling up screaming and cursing and threatening. I also know for a fact that the Controllers have instituted quiet hours/restricted pattern hours to try and fix this problem, but still, they get phone calls and threats and insults…
The people that are complaining, do not want reasonable fixes to the situation nor are they willing to take responsibility for their actions/decisions (ie: You bought a house near an airport and there are consequences)…They want their way…and if they have their way, Flagler Executive Airport will be no more…and that is unacceptable.
And I am helping Irwin…. I am helping people understand the facts and numbers of the situation so folks can be educated when this ultimately comes to a head. I have listened to the arguments and demands of those who wish to close down civil aviation through organizations like Save our Skies…An organization which a few of these residents belong…I have heard them speak at the meetings and listened to the threats and demands…They are beyond arrogant and entitled…some of it is lunacy.
Happy New Year
Irwin Fletcher says
Hey ALA I too have been in aviation for quite a while, in fact I grew up in general aviation. I spent my childhood at the airport (WW1 era) flying with my parents and counting the days until I could solo so trust me I get it. I saw first hand what happens with well intentioned homeowners with a legitimate gripe, airport management unwilling to address the problem and a flight school who could cared about dollars rather than their community impact. We (the aviation community) thought we were untouchable but were sorely mistaken. The airport was shut down and turned into an industrial park. Hundreds of pilots had to relocate to neighboring airports and the flight school went out of business. Rather than finding a way to coexist it was easier for government to shut down the airport and convert it into a much more profitable tax base without all the headaches. I have seen first hand how poorly this story can end. Let’s face it, the proximity to 95 and US 1 would make for a great industrial park and the county needs a better commercial tax base. The airport and neighborhoods need to find some common ground. The bottom line seems to be the flight schools, they are creating all this strife for our airport. Yes there have been flight schools here for many years, but not at this magnitude and not with their own armada of planes. We need to wrangle these flight schools into shape before they ruin the airport for the rest of us. That’s why I say we work together with the neighborhoods to find solutions rather than negate them. These folks don’t come off as entitled, they are concerned and keep getting brushed off. Sure they bought near an airport, let’s not run their noses it, let’s help find solutions. It seems enough people who don’t even live near the pattern attack them enough.
America_Loves_Aviation says
Irwin,
You are buying into this whole idea, or possibly just complicit to it, that the flight schools are just now coming in force to Flagler…this is a fallacious argument. Phoenix East has 10-15 aircraft here now, but before that and before the tower opened, Embry Riddle had a wing here…15 ish years ago. And for decades, a dozen flight schools have used Flagler as a central training area…So, you continuing to add to the idea that “these flight schools just now showing up to Flagler” is a fallacy…they have been here for a LONG time and long before most of these people bought in the vicinity.
Also, if you believe that folks who complain about aircraft noise will then support an industrial park/commerce park which will bring immense amounts of traffic, noise, and kill local mom and pop businesses…you really aren’t considering the bigger picture at all…..the handful of people complaining want silence and solitude…which compounds their mistake of buying near a busy general aviation airport.
As an aviator, your points make zero sense…as it insinuates a lack of understanding about what makes an airport lucrative…Which is pilots coming and refueling/patronizing airport facilities… the idea of “curbing and controlling” these flight schools seems to lend to the idea that they are doing something wrong…which they are not by any measure.
as has been said…ATC has put in measures…but even with those measures, folks are not happy and wont be happy until there are no aircraft at the airport…which is the Save Our Skies goal…no aviation over any populated area at any time.
Also, please…do not try to make folks who are complaining about aircraft noise out to be victims… it is another fallacious argument…they are simply dealing with the consequences of their decisions…conscious decisions…
Happy New Year
America_Loves_Aviation says
…the Air Traffic Control Tower was built at XFL/FIN just over 10 years ago…it was built because of high aviation training traffic levels as well as the numbers of transient and station aircraft…The arguments that traffic at Flagler has not been as busy as it has been over the last couple years are grossly mistaken.
The statement that Embry Riddle and other large flight schools have only just started to really come to Flagler is a false statement as Embry Riddle had an Auxiliary Hangar at Flagler that was closed before the tower opened and turned into a National Guard space. As has been stated…the facility was busy long before the tower opened and long before many of you purchased your house…
Embry Riddle is not the main culprit in the numbers at Flagler (which most of your estimations are wrong btw…but since you really know nothing about aviation and you are speaking from ignorance, it is to be expected)…Stop blaming Riddle…this only shows your ignorance
…it is amazing that so many of you are absolutely beside yourself about airplane noise…but none of your are crying about the Motorcycles, Street Racers, Redneck Mobiles and Semis that are FAR AND AWAY more noisy and more constant…
…Folks really need to curb their entitlement and ignorance… You moved next to an airport that has been used as a training facility for quite some time… Furthermore, Florida has some of the highest numbers if civil aviation in the country and yet you still moved here, near and airport, in the vicinity of various flight schools, near an area of training airspace…and you still think you have any leg to stand on…
Gina Weiss says
We are not solely blaming Riddle, Flagler live just happened to post a picture of their plane and again we are discussing flight school planes which were soaring over our homes every 30 sec daily from 7:00 am – 10:00 pm so get over your ignorance about the situation!
America_Loves_Aviation says
I understand facts, proof and math are inconvenient when they dont uphold your argument…but surely you can now take a deep breath and use some logic rather than spilling all these fallacious “statistics” to try and garner some support and sympathy.
Happy Holidays
GinaWeiss says
Again for the hundredth time did you read the article, its about flight school planes which soared over our heads daily every 30 sec from 7:00 am to 10:00 pm and some even earlier and later than that, and we were not only talking about Riddle, it happens that Flagler Live just happened to put a picture of that plane on its cover story, so get over yourself!
America_Loves_Aviation says
So…a little math for you… if an aircraft did an approach, every 30 seconds to the runway…that would be 2 a minute, doing touch and goes that is counted as 2 ops per plane…4 ops per minute…in one hour that would equal 240 ops which would give Flagler a total of 3360 operations per day…seeing as the Airnav average for Flagler is 435 and numbers that high would put Flagler in competition with major airports around the world…not just Contract towers which it would eclipse…your assertions are obviously exaggerated and inconsistent…
So it seems the person here that needs to get over themselves is you Ma’am.
Also…several folks above have mentioned Embry Riddle being a primary culprit and that was what that was in reference to…once again, get over yourself.
palmcoaster says
Regarding the noise and the nuisance endure by those that “bought by the airport when it didn’t have so many pilot training schools” I think they are only asking from schools, pilots, FAA, FCBOCC and Federal Transportation Committee in DC, just to try a little kindness that could go a long way. Just like my favorite Glenn sang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX7NNMKBPsw
Retired says
I have hours of footage of them circling my home in Daytona North miles from the airport. If there is a lawsuit I’m in.
Valerie Thompson says
We have this problem all over florida. People who have been here for more than a decade (very few of us left!) all know that these flight schools moved here long after we did. The airports were fine before the schools and before they started abusing their privileges (performing incessant touch and go patterns). You can get stats on who does takeoffs, landings, their tail numbers, and who the planes are registered to on Flightaware. You can also replay the flights to show altitude and flight pattern. For realtime tracking however, flightradar24 is better as flightaware typically lags on the live screen. Playback, logs, and records like registration etc. is better on flightaware.
Dennis C Rathsam says
If your 65 + in Alabama, you pay no property tax. It may be a little colder there, but think of the quaility of life without paying all these taxes. And this time you wont buy a house near the airport.
Gina Weiss says
This should be done down here , by the way Dennis people live close to airport all over New York but don’t have the flight school madmen in their face, this is all about the money down here.
Retired says
They dont have to file a flight plan. Down load the app Planes live there is a free version. It pinpoints your locaton and if you touch on a plane you can get tail numbers what kind of plane where they flew out of and where they are currently flying. I live in Daytona North they terrorize us everyday. We have pictures videos and screen shots of the repeat offenders. Cant wait to go to this meeting. Read the reviews on yelp for embry riddle.
Retired says
If anyone knows the date and time when they will be talking about the airport and flight schools please post it here. Goning to be there for sure
Gina Weiss says
Retired, there is no specific date set yet, I was informed by a commissioner that they are in the process of setting up a workshop sometime between the end of June and the beginning of July, I will post here when I get a date, meanwhile look up at the FCBOCC website meetings scheduled, so gather up the troops and show up and let Roy Sieger, Heidi Petito and the FCBOCC know what other areas are affected by numerous flight schools that threaten our quality of life and pose innement danger to pose lives as they boldly fly at dangerous low altitudes over our homesand dropping poison leaded fuel over our communitits.
SnootyKitty says
Hi Gina,
Are there any updates on the meeting itself? All the comments here seem to end mid-2023. On top of the flight schools, there’s something called Teens In Flight that does the exact same things. I had an email exchange with Ric Lehman, the Executive Director and VP of this organization. I was just trying to point out some of their flight patterns that are quite disruptive to people in this area, and I offered a recent example of such a flight from Tue 5/7/24. This is his response, and a direct quote:
“As to your area, thank you. I meet with all other schools in Daytona tomorrow and will share it with them. We’ll wave as we fly by. We will fly our planes when and where we are allowed by the FAA and that includes over your house.”
If this is not a threat of harassment, what is? Expecting these people to be kind and considerate or respond to reason is futile, we need more forceful action. What happened to the planned lawsuit, can we join?
The contact info for Ric Lehman, if you want to express your concerns: [email protected]. Please write your reviews on this inconsiderate organization and let’s hope the board sees them and we effect some change.
Prior to Teens In Flight, Mr. Lehman was the owner of Haven Horse Ranch, which has a 2.5 star rating on Yelp: https://www.yelp.com/biz/haven-horse-ranch-st-augustine. So apparently he was quite the charmer there as well. This horse ranch is now closed according to Google, seems to have gone out of business around 2019.
Retired says
I sent an email to your guy along with pictures of how they circle my house a thousand times a day. I have fight aware so you can keep track of the offenders. My husband sends at leat 30 emails to Robert Butler about Embry Riddle planes all day , all unanswered of course. They have terrorized us for 6 years. We have talked to the Airbudsman, what a joke. People at the FFA another joke. I have thousand of pics viedos ect… Would like to find a lawyer who is not a sissy or in someones pocket to start a lawsuit. They are ruining one of your rights as a homeowner which is PEACEFUL ENJOYMENT OF YOUR HOME. I do not live anywhere near an airport but can track planes from Embry Riddle making a beeline from DAB straight to Daytona North subdivison.
Backslapping Commission says
Snooty Kitty and Retired: Do you know that the Ombudsman for Flagler
Executive airport is Roy Sieger the airport director? Conflict of interest
to say the least!. Do you know that our airport advisory committee was
disbanded and never brought back to life by the FCBOCC county
administrator Heidi Petito despite the instructions by the former county
administrator Jerry Cameron? Do you now that residents do not have a
noise complaint portal to call? The county has deliberately shut down any
and all communication for residents to voice their complaints, you want to
talk about a totalitarian leadership, well it’s alive and here in Flagler County,
they all should be ashamed of themselves, despite thousands of complaints,
hundreds and hundreds of emails with proof of aerial footage of low flying
flight school planes hammering over our homes, businesses, high school,
hospital, etc. Forget the FAA they should not even exist they are good for
nothing, mostly just a bunch of retirees collecting a paycheck and who want
to continue to collect a paycheck, they are useless. You need to go to the
city/county meetings and speak up at the 3 minute public comment section
addressing all your issues, you need to write emails to your local officials,
and congressmen, Rubio, Waltz, take aerial shots as proof, measure the noise
with a decibal meter, get a petition started in your area and more importantly
ELECT officals who share your views and VOTE THESE LOCAL CRONIES
OUT! Thry are all in cohorts and don’t care about the SAFETY IMPACT of touch
and goes over communities, HEALTH IMPACT of the leaded fuel being dropped
into our water supply and onto our environment that these old piston engine
flight school planes use to get up into the sky, these officals are in it for power
and to collect a paycheck, they do not represent “We the People” they represent
their rich buddies who have special interest in what is going on. Ban together and
vote them out and ask the candidates who are running what their thoughts are
and how they intend to remedy the situation and hold them to the fire.
Retired says
The day of reckoning is here. Oct 21 at 1 pm at the fair grounds. Time for us who live in rural Flagler county to gather together to stop this crap of airplanes flying in circles around our homes sun up till sun down. County commision is going to talk about the airport and noise abatement. Hope to see you all there.
Retired says
Meeting at the court house oct 21 at 1 pm. About the noise. Its time Flagler County to stop the crap. Make them change their flight path. No more circling flights from sun up till sun down.