We’ve been here before. It’s never ended well. It’s never ended, period. A few bunker-busters aren’t about to end it either, whether they have Fordow’s Mount Doom in the bag or not. The opposite always happens in the Middle East the moment Israel and the United States substitute barbarism for diplomacy. Always.
There’s not been a single exception to the rule since 1956, the last time the United States intervened to stop Israeli (and British and French) aggression on a neighbor.
It’s not as if certain Israeli and American administrations haven’t known how to negotiate. They’ve had numerous Nobel-worthy diplomatic successes: Israel’s peace with Egypt, with Jordan, with the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and its transformation into the Palestinian Authority, and more recent normalizations with Morocco, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Sudan and what was the almost normalization with Saudi Arabia. Not least, there was the 2015 deal with Iran, which verifiably stopped Iran’s uranium enrichment until the current president recklessly pulled out in his first term, setting up his flim-flanked bombast last night.
Diplomacy’s been done with greater success than any military intervention since 1956, without exception. Every time Israel or the United States have resorted to war or any type of military option, they have reversed strategic advantages, triggered explosions of terrorism, and fueled extremism. Bombing Iran won’t change that. It’ll open a new and perilous front, one of whose outcomes is the certain acceleration not only of Iran’s but of other countries’ lunge for nukes as they figure–as North Korea has figured–that only nukes prevent attacks.
The president’s boast last night that the attack “totally obliterated” three Iranian nuclear sites had that rhetorical simplicity and clarity his fabrications rely on to make his disciples swoon but for the juvenile vocabulary that betrays a cluelessness his disciples are too clueless to worry about. George W. Bush enjoyed the same sunset glow in his “mission accomplished” speech on the USS Abraham Lincoln in 2003, 4,400 American and 300,000 Iraqi deaths too soon.
This morning the Pentagon was qualifying the president’s words to “severe damage,” which in the military jargon of Five O’Clock Follies is as precise as ellipses. Political thorns were clouding the after-action twerking. He’d broken his pledge so endlessly repeated since 2015 never to start “forever wars,” a colossal gamble with little preparation and no legal authority from Congress, on no evidence that Iran was close to going nuclear, and on even less evidence that it was threatening American interests.
“Imagine,” The Economist wrote on June 19, warning against an attack days before it happened, that Iran “now starts to kill American troops and civilians, or that it sends energy prices soaring by blasting Saudi Arabia’s oil industry or blocking the Strait of Hormuz, a vital waterway for oil and gas tankers. Or perhaps it will hit tower blocks in Dubai or Qatar, beginning a stampede of the expatriates who power their economies. Mr Trump would have to retaliate.”
Imagine no more. The president chose to indenture himself to Benjamin Netanyahu’s bloody reign as identically as his predecessor, as routinely as demanded by over half a century of American calamities in the Middle East.
So what, you say, were they supposed to do–let Iran become a nuclear power? The question reflects the either-or simplicity of last night’s show, when it was never a choice between either bombing or letting Iran get the bomb–not with Iran still far from a bomb and diplomacy the best option.
Even so: let’s assume Iran got the bomb. How is it different from conceding that Pakistan and North Korea have gone nuclear? Neither is more stable or predictable than Iran. Even as it successfully blackmailed the United States for billions in aid, Pakistan harbored Osama bin Laden for years in the same city that controlled its nukes while it propped up the Taliban against the 21-year American occupation of Afghanistan, eventually routing the American occupation.
That’s before getting into the more bigoted suggestion that Israel (or the United States, for that matter–the only power ever to use nukes) having the bomb is OK, but Iran having it isn’t. Bigotry joins morally mendacity when considering that war for war, soul for soul, Israel and the United States are with Russia the most destructive forces on the planet today, and the countries with the highest body counts to their names. Israel’s and America’s wars in the Middle East fit the template for what historian Barbara Tuchman called the “march of folly”–how major powers’ arrogance from Troy to Vietnam blinds them to their own crimes (and defeats).
Israel’s spectacular 1967 war, mistaken for a victory, set it up to be the occupying power it has been since for 4 million Palestinians between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 on the promised certainty to rid its northern border of the Palestine Liberation Organization. The 1982 invasion birthed Hezbollah, a more lethal, indigenous militia that had its coming out with the 1983 bombing of the U.S. Marines’ and French troopers’ barracks in Beirut that killed 299 servicemen and sent Reagan scurrying out of there with his tail between his legs.
Israel reloaded for Hezbollah and launched wars in 1993, 1996, 2006 (the one then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called “the birth pangs of a new Middle East”) and 2024. However degraded, Hezbollah hasn’t gone anywhere.
Israel’s policy since its inception has been to deny Palestinians the right to exist, and with the exception of a few more realistic prime ministers, to deny the two-state solution, which became too real a possibility after the 1993 Oslo accords. Fearing a Palestinian Authority-controlled West Bank unified with Gaza, Israel financed the rise of Hamas to sow division among Palestinians. It did so with billions of dollars, thanks to American complicity and taxpayers, “all based on the fundamentally flawed assessment that Hamas was neither interested in nor capable of a large-scale attack,” as the New York Times reported in 2023.
Israel created a monster it could no longer control. Israel has been the monster American presidents have refused to control. The two dynamics culminated in Gaza. The destructiveness of Israel’s ongoing genocide is indistinguishable from a nuking but for conventional means to achieve the same ends, excused, financed and applauded by a subservient America.
Don’t even rinse. Just repeat. Israel bombed Iraq’s Osirak installation in 1981 under the familiar pretenses–that Iraq was building nukes. It didn’t stop the United States from invading Iraq on the lie that it had weapons of mass destruction 22 years later.
Before launching the war, George W. Bush and his amen corner in American media (Thomas Friedman, Judith Miller, Joe Scarborough, Tucker Carlson, Christopher Hitchens, Fareed Zakaria, David Remnick) made an argument that went like this: “The United States has the prospect of a rare strategic opening. What has for years been a reactive approach in the Middle East can now be transformed into a proactive vision: one that curbs [Iraq]’s malign ambitions and efforts, stabilizes Gaza and lays the foundation for a new Middle Eastern order built on security, integration and peaceful relations.”
The West’s orientalism, a pathology that assumes only the West knows what those dumb Arabs and Persians and Pashtuns need, has penned volumes of moronic words about the Middle East. Those rank in a league of their own. We all know what followed.
The catch: the paragraph I attributed to Bush above was actually written yesterday by Amos Yadlin, a former chief of Israeli military intelligence, who argued in the New York Times why Israel and the United States had to attack Iran. I just substituted Iraq for Iran in that bracket.
Nothing has changed. Israeli and American illusions are as lethal as ever. That’s the definition of tragedy: a catastrophe foretold. That’s what the president started last night, foreclosing on the only viable option there was. The rest is “Mission Accomplished.”
Pierre Tristam is the editor of FlaglerLive. A version of this piece airs on WNZF.
The dude says
On the one side, corporal bone spurs and his merry band of lickspittles and chickenhawks… on the other, the proud boys, Tucker Carlson, and MTG…
What’s a poor MAGA to do when conflicting demons tug at your conscience like this?
Fernando Melendez says
This was the right move to prevent a third world war, and the fact it didn’t happen before this was because they weren’t named Trump. This will bring stability to the middle east once and for all. God Bless America 🇺🇸
don miller says
not a forever war for us. been a forever war for iran until they quit. its whack a mole from a distance until the moles give up.
B. W. MALONEY says
While your opinion commentary is truthful in many ways, if you were to be honest in an unbiased manner, you would have mentioned the funds given to Iran by President Obama and the release of $6+- billion to them by President Biden. While there are many other incidents in the past by the ‘other side of the isle’ that emboldened Iran, those are more recent and identifiable. The ‘kill-kill-kill’ rhetorics of Iranian governmental bodies have been used for decades to continue the hate and war posturing of those in that area.
Will removing the structures, that gave belief and validity to the verbal threat of nuclear war, demonstrate continued actions by Israel to be fruitless? Who knows? This has NOT been accomplished previously. Israel used it as the basis for their actions to start with, so why continue, once the threat was removed? If they continue, they will disclose an agenda beyond what other nations or perhaps even their own people would accept.
All nations have had hidden agendas unknown to their populations. That’s why they are hidden, because the majority of the world’s peoples do not want war, do not hate and just wish to live in a peaceful world. Disclosure is a process, no matter what your political views are, that shines the light on all of it and allows a fresh look at it all. Some have a difficult pill to swallow, realizing those they supported were less than they expected. It’s kind of admitting you were wrong or deceived. Using the term “red pilled” is commonly used today. If you know, you know.
I choose not to be a pessimist, but to paint the most positive picture I am able on all the conflicts that still have energy may resolve in the shortest time possible.
Robjr says
Any coincidence between a visit by “needs a shave Bannon” and knuckle head directing the bombing of Iran?
Anyone bother to listen to that draft dodgers tuff talk.
This is a picture of a sickly looking person.
https://www.nydailynews.com/2025/06/21/nypd-boosts-police-presence-sensitive-sites-strikes-iran/
joe says
I’m guessing they told J.D. -“we can’t ALL wear red ties….we’d look like a cult.”
Al says
Of course diplomacy is best but sometimes it has to come second. I grew up in Newark, NJ which is the butthole of the world. Daily life was a constant chaos of different levels of criminals. You tried to reason with them but sometimes you had to sucker punch them, then while they’re down you could reason a whole lot better. George Bush didn’t back the Chinese student revolt and Barry ‘O didn’t back the Iranian revolt. If either had stepped up the world may look different than it does. You can play ostrich but at least our president doesn’t.
Andy Montgomery says
War and killing never results in long term peace or by now the world would be at peace.
Excellent non biased history lesson.
What’s going to come of us hateful souls?
😎
Deborah Coffey says
Is this like attacking Iraq for weapons of mass destruction? The IAEA says Iran is not even close to have a nuclear weapon and it doesn’t look like they’re trying, either.
Pogo says
@Speaking of always true
“Impotent hatred is the most horrible of all emotions; one should hate nobody whom one cannot destroy.”
— Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
https://www.google.com/search?q=+Johann+Wolfgang+Von+Goethe
May as well hear from the rest of the choir:
THE NEW ARAB
https://www.newarab.com/
MIDDLE EAST EYE
https://www.middleeasteye.net/
PALESTINE CHRONICLE
https://www.palestinechronicle.com/
dmh says
Please do not talk about or give your opinion on such a serious and demonstrive topic and real life situation.
How does it help those who are unsettled?
What is your real purpose in these writings and what do you expect to gain from your readers, or society in that matter?
When you speak, you are sound as awful and evil as your main idea suggests.
Mountain Man says
In all of your big words and your research you have seemed to look over the fact that O’bama gave millions of dollars to them, Clinton was right in there also. But the Big one President Sleepy Joe or should we say President Auto-Pen let them attack our, America’s , facilities over 400 plus times without any repercussion. You seemed to have forgotten the horrible withdrawal from Afghanistan. You have not ever had a leader to even try anything like this. President Trump is the best and you don’t want to admit it.
DaleL says
I don’t have a crystal ball to see whether this attack will end well or not. I did read this morning a different take on the situation in the Atlantic Magazine, “The Only Iran Hawk Is Trump” by Graeme Wood. Previous administrations, including Trump (first term), have tolerated the killing and attempted killing of Americans by Iranian funded terrorists.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/the-only-iran-hawk-is-trump/ar-AA1Hb4pY
The Times of Israel had a story last year, “For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces”. It confirms much of Pierre’s claim that Israel has had a very questionable policy to divide Palestinians and prevent a Palestinian state. The Times of Israel story states that: “Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.”
I hope for peace and a good ending. However, the history of the region implies otherwise.
Tired of it says
https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-other-nations-ready-supply-153158798.html
We may be seeing the start of World War III, jjust because heis ego needed atention.
Edith Campins says
This is why we are on the brink of th next world war: “Donald Trump was single-handedly responsible for killing the nuclear deal with Iran in 2018”
FlaglerLive says
False. As Factcheck.org reported, “A viral meme distorts the facts about the Iran nuclear agreement. The deal, approved by six countries and the European Union, gave Iran access to its own frozen assets.”
Pierre Tristam says
Sorry. Ran out of cuddly kitten pictures to write about.
Skibum says
The world once had a diplomatically negotiated agreement with the islamist government of Iran that not only limited that country’s uranium enrichment, but just as importantly it mandated that Iran allow inspectors into all of their facilities to monitor compliance. But the man-child who is in the WH now has never once liked or spoken approvingly of any agreement or treaty that doesn’t have his name attached to it. So he defied a whole lot of world leaders including his predecessor, Barack Obama, who through a very long process of back and forth negotiations, was able to reach that historic arms treaty with Iran, and this idiot tore it up and declared it null and void.
The sad part is that Iran’s nuclear program at the time the agreement was put on paper had a very low percentage of uranium enrichment. After the orange-faced buffoon ripped that agreement up, from that day forward all of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors were barred from Iran’s facilities and in the intervening years since that boneheaded decision, Iran has dramatically increased it’s enrichment program to the point where they are reportedly on the cusp of making their own nuclear bombs. We would undoubtably not been in this situation we are in had the man-child in the WH not been so stupid, so shortsighted during his first presidency.
Of course, just as anyone could have predicted, now that the WH with his own finger on the red nuclear button forcibly told Iran to sign another nuclear agreement… after he bombed the hell out of them without even consulting Congress first or obtaining their consent… drumph is trying to make it look like HE wants Iran to sign a duplicate agreement with the U.S. just so the idiot in the WH can have it with his own name attached.
At least Barack Obama used diplomacy to reach an agreement. Drumph is his usual bully self, thinking he can accomplish the same thing by using bully tactics and then bombing Iran’s facilities, but he has only succeeded in pissing them off and giving them reason to shout more death threats at us, at Israel and other western countries. Bravo! An idiot is elected and put in the WH, and we can expect more idiocy!
Edwardo Perez says
Totally avoided congress to launch an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation! The orange terror strikes again. Get ready for inflation at the pump as Iran controls the straight and orange moron will learn there are always bad consequences to every choice he makes! Impeach the traitor or keep eating the those consequences!
Julia says
The proud people of Iran surely won’t just roll over after they have been unprovokly attacked by another nation. What nation would? Watch China go for Taiwan now…
JimboXYZ says
[Disallowed. Do not use this site to spread disinformation. Thanks.–FL]
Mothersworry says
The attack is just another of Trump diversions. No mention of Dodg anymore, no mention of tariffs anymore, no mention of immigrants anymore, no talk of the dismantling of various Federal departments anymore, no mention of those who were laid off by Musk anymore. Now it’s all about nukes.
Have to figure this latest action will result in casualties to our military. How does that reconcile with all the lay offs at the VA? Who takes care of those who may very well be wounded?
This whole deal is pure BS !!
Norm Chomsky says
You got conned! No money for meals on wheels or kids cancer research, food stamps but already spent $280000000 on a war that isn’t ours. I said the orange terror would start ww3 and I’ll stand by that. Murikkka will take global dispair for a made up dollar Jim.
JC says
“Israel’s spectacular 1967 war, mistaken for a victory, set it up to be the occupying power it has been since for 4 million Palestinians between Gaza and the West Bank. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 on the promised certainty to rid its northern border of the Palestine Liberation Organization. The 1982 invasion birthed Hezbollah, a more lethal, indigenous militia that had its coming out with the 1983 bombing of the U.S. Marines’ and French troopers’ barracks in Beirut that killed 299 servicemen and sent Reagan scurrying out of there with his tail between his legs. ”
You forgot that after the PLO was booted out of Jordan that they went into Lebanon and did help kick of the Civil War, or did you forget? I haven’t met a Lebanese who were Pro-Palestine, all the ones I met (Christian or Muslim) didn’t like them one bit at all. Even Palestinians in Lebanon are discrimanted against.
Also regarding Iran, they are a bunch of liars. Obama should had ever done a deal with Iran, since they will just lie off their teeth and will continue doing what they want to do best: Dreams of killing Americans and Israelis.
My thoughts says
He is ruining our economy, threaten countries with tariffs which is raising prices for all, promised no wars, would lower drug and food prices, and now we are at war at taxpayers expense for Isarael. Is this what MAGA voters call Making America Great Again?
I call it betrayal and a bunch of lies.
Iran has now threatened sleeper cells in the US. How much more is Congress going to allow Trump to destroy our country?
Dennis C Rathsam says
How many more Americans does Iran have to kill before your pissed? What kind of patriot are you? TRUMP did the right thing. He is the only president with BALLS! Obama gave them millions, so Iran could support terror in the Middle East. Biden, the appsent minded fool, didn’t know the time of day…And Iran was closer than theve ever been to a nuke! They were at it 24hours a day! TRUMP didn’t hesitate, that’s what leaders do. It was a masterfull plan. Now its time for cleaning out the rest of the fools that lead this country. It’s time to set the good people of IRAN be free! Time to kick the Mullohs out! once & for all. The world is a safer place now! BIBI wont stop til there’s a change! He didn’t come this far to stop now. TRUMPS got his back, THIER all AFFRAID of him! God saved his life, because he had things to do. The time has come once again America is back, ready to lead the world! PEACE through strength!!!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!! & THANK GOD FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP!
Coulda Woulda Shoulda says
A regime harasses and intimidates their neighbors and their own people for over half a century. “Death to [insert country or entire race here]!” Not only funds but actually supplies weapons of death and destruction to [insert whatever communist or authoritarian country or group of hateful, bigotted, racist, sexist group name here]. A regime that simply provides no good to their own people nor anyone else for that matter. So things are supposed to “end well”?
No, this should have been done decades ago. This should be done on the regular. When they punch, you punch back harder. Hit them in the mouth and eventually they’ll figure it out. Stop poking the bear.
Don’t make it sound like that somehow or another the United States (and Israel) are the only ones wrong here. That we’re the ones in the school yard throwing the dirt and rocks and running our mouths off, bullying anyone and everyone.
I wake up every day knowing that the FCSO is going to have some folks that are going to come on a moment’s notice and take care of business if me and my household comes under attack from some evil rat bastard sonofabitch that wants to cause us harm. Same holds true for our United States military. We’re the cops of the world. SWAT is on the scene now, and it ain’t gonna “end well” for mostly the leadership of Iran. Shouldn’t have poked the bear(s).
Ed P says
Pierre,
Since you are from the Middle East, could I ask your opinion? If Iranians did develop nuclear weapons, do you believe that they would not use them?
I’m curious from the stand point that the acquaintances I have from both Aleppo and Damascus are absolute on their resolve that it would be inevitable. Most of the Muslim community (Pakistanis,Afghans, and Egyptians) I interact with are also of that mindset. Even the Yemenis seem to agree.
I will close by saying these acquaintances are not from academia but business people.
Ps not blowing up N Korea’s’ nuclear enrichment facilities may still prove to be a mistake. Kim Jong Un is certifiably nuts.
Pierre Tristam says
We at least have history to guide us, and quite a bit of it. Based on their willingness to unleash violence to the extent that they do, the likelihood of the United States (the only country ever to use them) or Israel using nukes is far, far greater than Iran doing so, were it to acquire the capability, since Iran knows that the moment it uses one, it would no longer exist: it would be wiped off the map, something it cannot do to the United States and, I’d also argue, to Israel. As for Kim Jong-un: if you’re able not only to tolerate but to be Trump’s choir boy, who is more dangerous than Kim Jong-un for having the world’s most powerful military at his disposal, I don’t see how Kim Jong-un’s nuttiness is relevant: Trump’s exceeds his by orders of magatonnage. An additional note: it’s absurd to predicate someone’s opinions on his/her/their geographic or ethnic origins. It’s pigeon-holing and offensive. Would you only ask me my opinion of Cory Booker if I were Black? Would you only ask my opinion of Flannery O’Connor if I were a southern white supremacist?
Iraq was sucessful for shell says
I see four people from the gop terrorist organization that has done more harm to people than all the gangs put together! I say heads on sticks after a trial of course !
Oil wars for the r cons! Iraq was another con that made shell own the oil instead of people of Iraq. Amazing how evil and hateful these magats are can’t wait for them to get what’s coming!
Pierre Tristam says
How could I forget? The PLO destroyed my country and is half the reason I’m here. But there’s only so much yo ca fit in a 1,200-word column. (Robert Fisk tried to do it in 1,200 pages and knew he’d fall short). And yes, Palestinians are treated like shit in Lebanon. That doesn’t excuse the Lebanese (or my once unlimited bigotry toward Palestinians and Lebanese Muslims) or somehow elevates Israel’s and American actions, especially when those being denied an identity and a state are the Palestinians, not their tormentors.
JC says
“How could I forget? The PLO destroyed my country and is half the reason I’m here. But there’s only so much yo ca fit in a 1,200-word column. (Robert Fisk tried to do it in 1,200 pages and knew he’d fall short). And yes, Palestinians are treated like shit in Lebanon. That doesn’t excuse the Lebanese (or my once unlimited bigotry toward Palestinians and Lebanese Muslims) or somehow elevates Israel’s and American actions, especially when those being denied an identity and a state are the Palestinians, not their tormentors.”
Why would I give a group of people a state when they throw off gays off buildings? You know how many Palestinians who came to America still don’t like the LGBT lifestyle? It’s more than you think (and I talked with a lot of them over the years). And sorry, they deserve to be tormented because they continue to pick the wrong answer on almost everything and continue to act like barbarians. I’ll change my mind when the Palestinians stop saying “Death to Israel,” dump Hamas and Fatah political parties off the face of the earth since they are the lechers of aid, be willing to protect religious and sexual minorities (Christian population in West Bank is almost gone), and stop acting like a victim. Then at that point I’ll do a complete 180 of my opinion on this matter. There are a lot of reasons that even the Arab nations are getting sick of tired of the Palestinians.
Ed P says
Pierre,
In your opinion the US and Israel would be more prone to using nuclear weapons. That’s quite a statement.
If the Iranians know they could never use one, then having one for any reason is senseless. Your logic lacks common sense.
In your editorial you stated that the North Korean nuclear capability isn’t any more dangerous than Iran’s. Kim Jung Un’s mental state is pertinent.
Finally, it is not racist/phobic to ask you your opinion. You have made it abundantly clear that your background provides you with a unique knowledge and understanding of the Middle East.
The low road you took in your response continues to expose your personal dislike for me and your need to try to discredit my opinions.
You are delusional when you state that Trump is more dangerous .
Steve says
Thank you for the insight FaglerLive. The magats are too caught up in Fox to decipher any facts about the frozen funds and baffles me they don’t just Google it or go on Government sites. It’s a travesty how Misinformed our populous is on Both sides.
Keep the Faith
Samuel L. Bronkowitz says
The dumb shits cheering this on won’t be over there fighting this war, their grandkids will be.
Pig Farmer says
All those sending comments of praise for the Constitutionally illegal attack on Iran must have forgotten about September 11th. The middle-eastern counties all fight amongst themselves, and have for thousands of years, but when outsiders like the U.S. attack, retaliation can come from many different groups, on American soil.
Laurel says
Trump stated if Kamala Harris won the Presidency, she would have us in a war in six months. Trump did it in five.
joe says
The bigger picture:
DHS is warning of increased potential of terrorism in the US. We do not seem well-prepared for this as Trump, Gabbard, Hegseth, and gang have fired many, many, experienced intelligence and national security professionals – professionals being a word they are unfamiliar with – and to make you feel even safer, this is Trump’s Department of Homeland Security official “tasked with overseeing the government’s main hub for combating violent extremism: (a 22 year-old intern with NO national security experience)
https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-dhs-thomas-fugate-cp3-terrorism-prevention
Atwp says
It will be bad if ww3 start. I hope it dosent but if it does, pretty sure millions will get killed. Trump will blame the Democrats for the war. Time will tell.
Bob says
Sorry folks. That is some of u . Iran and Israel agreed to a cease fire. Stick it in ur ear Pierre
Pierre Tristam says
I have never suggested abundantly or otherwise that my background gave me anymore knowledge–let alone unique knowledge–of the Middle East than, say, John Rogers in Bunnell’s knowledge, if he wanted to read up on it. Personal backgrounds, like anecdotal evidence, are as often as not a hindrance to clarity, not an advantage, certain very personal experiences that have nothing to do with geography, ethnicity or birth aside. On the other hand yes, I have made clear that I greatly dislike your comments (not you)–for comments like the one you just dropped: malinformed, pathologically disingenuous and serially inaccurate. As for you, I have no idea whether I’d like you or not; I don’t know you, but chances are you’d not be a first choice for a cigar at Ash & Ale.
FlaPharmTech says
I’m taking the just breathe and stick my head in the sand approach right now. Most of the commenters here should do the same. I detest the current admin and do not support dropping the bomb, but it’s done. I’m too exhausted to ponder the fallout. Let international chips fall where they will, and hope for a positive outcome.
I love Palm Coast’s beautiful nature, but my neighbors, yeah, not so much. Vomit up the Kool Aid, please.
JC says
“I have never suggested abundantly or otherwise that my background gave me anymore knowledge–let alone unique knowledge–of the Middle East than, say, John Rogers in Bunnell’s knowledge, if he wanted to read up on it. Personal backgrounds, like anecdotal evidence, are as often as not a hindrance to clarity, not an advantage, certain very personal experiences that have nothing to do with geography, ethnicity or birth aside. On the other hand yes, I have made clear that I greatly dislike your comments (not you)–for comments like the one you just dropped: malinformed, pathologically disingenuous and serially inaccurate. As for you, I have no idea whether I’d like you or not; I don’t know you, but chances are you’d not be a first choice for a cigar at Ash & Ale.”
I seen you a few times at the European Village. I know what you look like, but last thing I want to do is to bug someone about stuff we are talking about on the internet (even when we have strong disagreements on some important issues). We never met in real life, so I don’t think it is right to approach you when you are trying to enjoy yourself.
Pierre Tristam says
It is much appreciated JC.
Sherry says
@bob. . . Catch Up, trump’s ceasefire is already in trouble! Are you so deluded as to think trump could just drop a few bombs and it would all be over. . . LOL! It will be interesting to see what happens all over the world in the next few months.
Kennan says
According to retired General Wesley Clark: 10 days after 911 he saw secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, and members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. One of the general said to Clark,” we are going to war with Iraq. This was on or around September 20, 2001. Clark said,” why”? General said,” I don’t know”. There was no connection between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda. I guess when you have a strong military, you can take down governments to deal with terrorists. I guess if the only two you have is a hammer every problem has to look like a nail. A individual from the secretary of defense’s office showed Clark papers that framed how we would take out seven countries in five years. First, we would take out Iraq then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and finish off with Iran. Clark stated.:” Is this classified?” The official said: “YES” Clark, then stated: “ Don’t tell me anymore.
This happened. Look up the video.
Welcome back to 2002.
This is very simple, even if you are the type of person that tends to ignore history…. At least the last two years, with your eyes open, watching a full scale holocaust filmed in”Ultra High Def” resolution. Watching Israel, kill over 100,000 civilians above and below ground, to conflate Palestinians with Hamas militants, call it a war so that your planned overreach can conveniently be called collateral damage.
Israel proved to the world on numerous occasions that they could pinpoint Hamas leaders in foreign countries like Iran, as well as pagers in Lebanon. They chose to kill civilians, block, humanitarian aid, kill, journalists, walk away from the negotiating table, numerous times while watching the United States vote against a cease-fire at the UN while saying they want a cease-fire.
The only country in the Middle East with nukes is Israel. The full support of the United States, because the co-secretary of state and defense Benjamin Netanyahu says it must be so.
Iran in the United States were in negotiations then Israel launched a preemptive attack against Iran. A war crime. Israel used the United States and Iran for their own gain. Played them against one another for their own gain.
Iran, understandably retaliates. Benjamin Netanyahu does not care whether World War III starts or not. He thinks of all of this as a religious war. He even references the “Amalok” and other tenuous Bible passages to reel in the US and other western fools to do his bidding.
“We will do what we want in the Middle East.” Netanyahu has been itching for a war with Iran for 30 years. He has wanted to drag us into a war with Iran, and until now, has prevailed. Israel will continue to provoke in order to deepen or involvement in conquering the Middle East in the behest of Israel
Manufactured Consent….
Manufactured Consent…..
Manufactured Consent…..
We should really get cozy with this term, because it’s what we do politically on a nearly constant basis. We find ourselves engaged in an illegal war in Iran. A war that is constitutionally illegal, as well as the fact that it was wage without a vote through Congress.
What have we become? Cowards. That is what we have become. Not our soldiers, for they merely do what they are told. Our leaders. Those are the cowards.
You wanna cut the head off the snake? Cut the head off the” two headed” cold, blooded reptile known as Israel and the US. I mean, who are the terrorists? Who are they really? Nobody condone terrorism. Nobody! Britain in the United States set up Israel for success by initiating “The Nakba “ kicking almost 1,000,000 Palestinians off their land in 1948. Occupying the Gaza Strip in 1967, creating both ownership of the territories and ownership of the people living in said territories. Along the way, especially in the last 20 years, the ownership, abuse, and subjugation of a people has not just created chaos and hate, it has also created the pushback of people with no hope. The pain of yesterday, the hopelessness of today, and the absolute terror of “NO TOMORROW.”
I will not be polite.
The July 4 celebration is looming in the coming days. What are we celebrating? Are we celebrating our independence?
What independence? We forgot who the fuck we are. While you’re all waving your American flags, flying your American flags off the back of your pick up trucks, wearing stupid T-shirts that say.” These colors don’t Run”, i’ll be wondering why we started running from ourselves, and wondering when we can celebrate our independence from ourselves.
We now live in a country where the president of the United States goes after states because they are Blue. No America there. If you speak against Israel, you are called a terrorist or an antisemite. Keep in mind at this rate, the way Israel is treating the rest of the world, they may actually make the term synonymous with being an anti-Nazi. Fair or not. It could happen. It will be the fault that falls on the feet of Netanyahu and Israel.
We finally, and sadly live in a country where our greatest threat to national security is a guy named Jose with a leaf blower, a guy named Manuel, picking fruits and vegetables, and Maria, the 40-year-old woman keeping beds made and clean at the old folks home. Your mother resides in.
Happy birthday America.
Ray W, says
Out of curiosity, I looked for some sort of, any sort of, history on the development of the 30,000-pound bombs used in an attempt to penetrate the mountainside under which the Fordow nuclear development complex was built.
According to “official specifications”, as published in a Time article, the Massive Ordnance Penetrator (MOP) can travel through 200 feet of earth, or 60 feet of concrete, before the 5,300-pound explosive charge detonates. Nothing in that article dealt with rock penetration or, for that matter, described the type of concrete the military says the bomb can penetrate.
Looking in a different direction, I found a Popular Mechanics article first published in September 2022 and then recently republish in an updated form after up to three MOPs were dropped on the Iranian mountainside atop the Fordow site.
In that article, the author noted that in recent decades, advances in concrete development have outstripped advances in ground penetration bomb technology.
In 1985, the U.S. military developed its first versions of today’s class of bunker buster bombs. Unlike normal bombs that have a thin metal casing and a comparatively large explosive charge, bunker busters have a thicker metal covering and a smaller explosive charge. The purpose is for the purpose-built bomb to burrow deep into the earth and then punch through a bunker shell, if there is one, before blowing up.
During the early days of the 1991 Iraq War, existing 2,000-pound bunker busters were failing to penetrate underground concrete-reinforced Iraqi command bunkers. In a mere 30-some days, the Air Force Research Laboratory Munitions Directorate developed a prototype 5,000-pound bunker buster bomb capable of penetrating 20 feet of reinforced concrete; they were then used to destroy the Iraqi command bunkers.
At the advent of the 21st century, the Air Force set out to produce a stronger steel chemistry, now known as Eglin steel, to make more penetrative bombs. with performance characteristics matched only by another newly developed Air Force product: USAF-96 steel.
But concrete development stepped up, too, in a race to beat new penetrator bomb designs.
A class of concrete known is “high strength” can withstand forces up to 10,000 psi without shattering. But Iran has been at the forefront of developing a form of concrete now known as “Ultra High Performance Concrete” (UHPC), which has the strength to withstand more than 40,000 psi of force. UHPC involves a composite concrete, with fibers added to avoid high-strength concrete from shattering due to being too brittle. Instead of fracturing into large pieces of concrete under force, UHPC experiences microfractures during impact; it can absorb far more fracture energy.
The West first became aware of Iran’s special concrete in the late 2000s when a bunker penetrator bomb failed to pierce an Iranian bunker. By 2011, the MOP entered into military service. A fourth-generation MOP is in service now.
But a researcher for Advanced Materials Development Corp., Gregory Vartonov, Ph.D., wrote in a February 2021 piece published in Aerospace & Defense Technology magazine: “Penetrators with monolithic cases made from materials such as … Eglin Steel … cannot penetrate bunkers made from UHPC.”
Results from U.S. testing of bunker busters on UHPC bunkers is classified, but the Chinese government published its own study of bunker busters, finding that they either partially penetrate a UHPC bunker or they bounce off the structure.
Make of this what you will.
Me?
The American military has been working on the MOP for some 15 years or so in an attempt to keep ahead of a concrete reinforcing technique pioneered by Iran. Who knows who is ahead?
Here we are.
President Trump says the underground complex at Fordow has been “obliterated.” A recent technical magazine article suggests that today’s MOPs cannot penetrate a hardened concrete bunker. Maybe one MOP cannot, but maybe three can.
As an aside, the Chinese military is developing its own bunker material, called a “Functionally Graded Cementitious Composite (FGCC). The bunker’s exterior shell of “extra-hard aggregate-reinforced UHPC” covers a layer of “hybrid fiber-reinforced UHPC optimized to resist cracking”. The bottom, or third layer has a “tough steel-fiber-reinforced UHPC”.
According to published research on FGCC-reinforced bunkers, “FGCC resisted penetration and explosion far better than UHPC: ‘penetration depth, crater area, and penetration damage were decreased greatly by the synergistic effects of high-strength fibers and coarse aggregates.”
I don’t know whether the Fordow complex was obliterated or not. Some FlaglerLive commenters believe the complex was obliterated based on the word of the president. I am aware of recent articles based on supposedly leaked U.S. intelligence estimates that support the argument that little damage was done to the complex.
Perhaps in time more complete information will become known.
Kennan says
Sorry for some of the typos.
Just a little pissed.
Ray W, says
The question, it strikes me, posed by Mr. Tristam is whether anyone, no matter how experienced, no matter how well-meaning, no matter how adroit and adept in human understanding, knows the outcome of how any one act, in this case the bombing of the Fordow complex, will roll into another act and roll into yet another act in a region semi-governed by tribes with flags.
Commenter after commenter wonders how best to solve the myriad issues posed by distant peoples whose enmities towards each other know no bounds.
I lean toward the closing paragraphs of Barbara Tuchman’s The Guns of August:
“Men could not sustain a war of such magnitude and pain without hope — the hope that its very enormity would ensure that it could never happen again and the hope that when somehow it had been fought through to a resolution, the foundations of a better-ordered world would have been laid. Like the shimmering vision of Paris that kept Kluck’s soldiers on their feet, the mirage of a better world glimmered beyond the shell-pitted wastes and leafless stumps that had once been green fields and waving poplars. Nothing less could give dignity or sense to monstrous offensives in which thousands and hundreds of thousands were killed to gain ten yards and exchange one wet-bottomed trench for another. When every autumn people said it could not last through the winter, and when every spring there was still no end in sight, only the hope that out of it all some good would accrue to mankind kept men and nations fighting.
“When at last it was over, the war had many diverse results and one dominant one transcending all others: disillusion. ‘All the great words were cancelled out for that generation,’ wrote D. H. Lawrence in simple summary for his contemporaries. If any of them remembered, with a twinge of pain, like Emile Verhaeren, ‘the man I used to be,’ it was because he knew the great words and beliefs of the time before 1914 could never be restored.
“After the Marne the war grew and spread until it drew in the nations of both hemispheres and entangled them in a pattern of world conflict no peace treaty could dissolve. The Battle of the Marne was one of the decisive battles of the world not because it determined that Germany would ultimately lose or the Allies ultimately win the war but because it determined that the war would go on. There was no looking back, Joffre told the soldiers on the eve. Afterward there was no turning back. The nations were caught in a trap, a trap made during the first thirty days out of battles that failed to be decisive, a trap from which there was, and has still been, no exit.”
Make of this what you will.
Me?
Can it reasonably be argued that the Middle East, for the past 100 years, had at first been drawn into and then caught forever in a trap centered on the historical peoples of Palestine? Will people ever come to understand that individual victories in the region have been proclaimed over and over and over again without end, indeed yet another one such victory was proclaimed a few days ago, only for everyone to quickly realize that nothing has been achieved, nothing has been won, nothing has been stopped, that all the great words have been cancelled out.
The tribes simply want to be left alone by the rest of the world so as to better be able to thrash each other without end.
Ray W, says
The Times of Israel offered its own take on the bombing of the Fordow complex in Iran:
– “… US President Trump said that Israel sent agents into Fordow after the US strikes who said that the key nuclear site had been ‘obliterated.’ Israeli officials told the Kan public broadcaster that they were unaware of an Israeli operation at the site.”
– “The achievements of Israeli and US airstrikes on Iranian nuclear facilities are still being evaluated, and it’s too early to determine operational success, two Israeli sources tell the network, with one source downplaying the damage at Fordow and calling the outcome there ‘really not good.'”
– “Conclusive findings may take months, if they are attained at all, a source tells the US (ABC News) network.”
Make of this what you will.
Ed P says
Real question is: Will the Iranians finally refrain from being the common denominator in the worldwide terrorism by proxy?
Doubtful.
Pierre Tristam says
Will Israel and the United States refrain (with Russia) from being the most lethal mass-killing powers and the most disruptive forces on the plate? Of course not. They’ll double down.
Kennan says
Thank you, Pierre.
We have been the biggest proxy war kings of the last 100 years.
No matter which way you cut it. Israel has been the biggest and baddest industrial-strength terrorist in the Middle East for 80 years. Actions provoke reactions. Nobody condones Terrorism, but when you come in historically like a “Bull in a china shop” push everybody out of the way, subjugate and abuse native Palestinians after a holocaust you suffered through? senseless. Senseless for 78 years. We can’t fix the Middle East until we take ownership of The pen ultimate role We have played in breaking it.