Imagine if Jonathan Ross and Renee Nicole Good were not ICE agent and protester in the encounter that led Ross to shoot and kill Good on a Minneapolis street on Jan. 7, but rather two Florida civilians in a road-rage confrontation in a Palm Coast parking lot.
The rage is more Ross’s than Good’s as he complains that she’s blocking him in. Good tells Ross she has nothing against him and begins to drive off after Ross’s friend intervenes. Ross, who for some reason decides to position himself near the front of Good’s Honda Pilot, feels threatened, pulls out his gun and fires three shots, killing her. Because it was three shots rather than one, he’s charged with second-degree murder.
He invokes Stand Your Ground, the law that grants a person both the right not to retreat when threatened, and immunity if the person uses deadly force to stop a perceived threat. It’s then the prosecution’s burden to prove that it was not self-defense. If a court grants the Stand Your Ground argument, the charge against Ross is dismissed and the case closed. No appeal, no further hearings, no trial.
Stand Your Ground is the self-defense standard most favorable to the person who commits an act of violence in self-defense. Hearings are notoriously subjective and ultimately rely not on a jury but a single judge’s decision. I don’t have scientific proof of this, but my impression from covering courts almost since the law was enacted–and made more absurd in 2017, when the burden of disproving self-defense was shifted to the prosecution–is that judges hate the law. Reasonable judges don’t like subjectivity, they don’t like shortcuts, they don’t like to preempt juries. Stand Your Ground does all three.
I covered two Stand Your Ground hearings in seven months last year, one of them granting the attacker’s motion, the other rejecting it. With all due respect to a judge I admire and have found almost flawless otherwise, I thought one of the decisions was wrong. I say this only to suggest that, even where the judge in my view got it right, had either case gone to juries, it would have been a tossup. Had the two cases been the subject of an experiment, putting each to a half dozen different juries, I’m pretty sure the juries’ verdicts would have split evenly, even in Flagler County.
Here’s where the judge didn’t go wrong: the decision in each of those two local cases was not based on a single act of aggression. It was based on the totality of circumstances surrounding the incidents. The judge applied the standard Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan did last May, in a unanimous decision about police shootings.
“The question here is whether that framework permits courts, in evaluating a police shooting (or other use of force), to apply the so-called moment-of-threat rule used in the courts,” Kagan wrote. “Under that rule, a court looks only to the circumstances existing at the precise time an officer perceived the threat inducing him to shoot. Today, we reject that approach as improperly narrowing the requisite Fourth Amendment analysis. To assess whether an officer acted reasonably in using force, a court must consider all the relevant circumstances, including facts and events leading up to the climactic moment.”
The standard is no less applicable in Stand Your Ground situations, though it often is not applied, again because that law upends the reasonable standards of self-defense. The problem is not the murkiness of some self-defense cases. It is the transformation by Stand Your Ground of self-defense from the self-preservative act it has been for centuries of common law into an act of preemptive, lethal aggression if necessary. By removing the duty to retreat where and when possible, it not only returns us to the retributive justice of Hammurabi (an eye for an eye), but worse: Even in Hammurabi’s time, an eye for an eye was the deliberate verdict after the facts had been established. Stand Your Ground immunizes moment-of-threat vigilantism and justifies a life for an eye, or a life for nothing at all, as is usually the case. It fills graves where none would have been necessary while glorifying the killer in the name of a warped version of self-defense.
Ross as a civilian would have had a hard time winning a Stand Your Ground argument. It would not have been a tossup. Not with a dead woman and her pet dog in a car that had its wheels pointing away from him, copious video showing the car veering away from Ross, and Ross unhurt and vilifying the “fucking bitch” instead of rendering aid afterward while forbidding anyone from doing so, including a physician who was standing by and begging to check on Good. Even under the light most favorable to Ross, he would lose.
There is no federal Stand Your Ground law. Nor does Minnesota have a Stand Your Ground law. So in the real Ross-Good case, we’re back to the common law and the duty to retreat in a self-defense situation or, alternately for law enforcement, the reasonable use-of-force standard that applies. Reasonable force is part of a “continuum.” It doesn’t happen in a void. It is progressive, starting with deescalation and gradually intensifying if lesser means fail. Lethal force is the absolute last resort.
By definition, it is not a moment-of-threat consequence, but a culmination necessarily preceded by a series of ineffective steps. Ross may not have had a duty to retreat, but he had a duty to apply the reasonable-use-of-force standard, which may include tactical retreats–just as cops in Flagler County routinely abandon a car chase, which is a tactical retreat, if they judge the offender low risk and the chase too risky. Put more simply, Ross had the duty to retreat if the offender was not high risk and he’d make matters worse if he used force. The fact that you’re wearing a uniform doesn’t lessen your duty to apply those reasonable standards. It heightens them, because that’s what you’re trained to do: deescalate, not instigate. Public safety first.
Good was unarmed, was showing no aggression, had explicitly said she had nothing against him, and was carrying out what Americans thought was still the right of protest under the First Amendment. She may have been clumsy and overzealous, somewhat blocking traffic but not really, as cars passing by and her gestures to let them pass by clearly prove. She was endangering no one, threatening no one, taunting no one. Ridiculing an ICE agent is not a crime. If ICE agents have a chip on their shoulder, they shouldn’t be ICE agents. Scott Galloway in Notes on Being a Man writes “being a man… doesn’t mean letting other people walk over you, or whack you, but it doesn’t have to escalate. Ignore a potential skirmish and it won’t become one.” Ross was not whacked. He created the skirmish. He escalated. He cocked the moment of threat. Then he killed.
Ross is a 10-year veteran ICE agent with the benefit of a measure of immunity granted to all law enforcement agents in shootings and other use-of-force incidents against civilians. The immunity is not absolute, nor does it erase the normal standards of self-defense for himself or reasonable-use-of-force in any situation. But Ross was primed for revenge, and not just because he’d been dragged 100 yards by a car during an interaction with a Guatemalan in June: the country’s invasion by ICE’s paramilitary tactics is premised on a president who has repeatedly signaled that agents are untouchable, and on no-holds-barred vengeance for migrants’ “great replacement” of white Americans. Anyone who gets in the way is complicit and criminally interfering. Anyone who gets in the way is fair game. Good got in the way.
If the Justice Department were in the hands of an administration that respects the rule of law, Ross would at least be prosecuted–without interference from the president or other members of his cabinet–leaving it up to a jury to decide his fate. But the Justice Department’s methods are closer to those of Nicolas Maduro than, say, Robert H. Jackson or even Robert Kennedy (not the unvaccinated one). So that won’t happen, just as the crime scene was immediately corrupted when an ICE agent drove away in one of the vehicles involved and other agents trampled the scene. Instead, themselves corrupting the case, the president, his vice president and his homeland security chief turned Good into a terrorist worthy of Guantanamo Bay and Ross into their next saintly Kyle Rittenhouse.
Good was a mother of three, a lesbian, a poet, an avowed Christian and white, though it wouldn’t have made a difference if she were any other color braid in the fabric of America’s besieged pluralism. As with the murders of George Floyd, Eric Garner, Tyre Nichols, Laquan McDonald, Walter Scott, Oscar Grant and so many others, there is no gaslighting the killing on Portland Avenue. It may not have been murder. It cannot possibly be interpreted as any less than negligent homicide in the crucible of a terror state that sanctifies brutality first and questions never. In a state of siege, every moment is a potential threat, and every citizen its target.
Pierre Tristam is the editor of FlaglerLive. A version of this piece airs on WNZF.
FedUp says
Keep up the great work, ICE!
Mike Cocchiola says
You’re fed up with,what? Democracy? Justice? People not like you?
Laurel says
Unfortunately, many in this county idolize a demon. He gives them permission to be hate filled, while wearing a cross. What’s really interesting about that, is I hear all kinds of Christian support, yet I never hear any of Jesus Christ’s words. Strange, huh?
Laurel says
Silence.
No, please, tell me how your savior would handle the current situation. You confuse me with your claims. You seem to have forgotten raped children, and you want to turn away our neighbors. Is that what your Christian religion teaches?
Laurel says
Again, silence. I guess this Christian stuff is only useful when manipulated.
Texas Representative James Talarico said Christianity is simple, and hard. I think I get it now. He said to treat others as you would be treated and welcome your neighbors. Yes, that’s both simple and hard, but if you claim to be Christian, you should work at it, no?
I’m not a Christian, so tell me where I’m wrong. It is those of you who claim to be Christian who seem to have no answers when asked.
Dusty says
Leave the agents alone so they can do the job we voted for which is to remove all the illegal aliens that Biden, Myorkazz and Harris let in as part of a scheme to control seats. Renee unfortunately was killed because she went out of her way to get in their way and it went wrong. No she didn’t deserve to die but no one is responsible but herself and perhaps her wife. Her did thinks that too.
Kennan says
I didn’t like Biden either, but Biden and Harris? Really?
You got 35 likes for the bullshit. You just peddled.
Doesn’t say much about this county.
Thomas Hutson says
Pierre,
It’s not often that I agree with you on some of your opeds , but in this case I will tell you that I agree with you 100%. You have covered everything from the perspective of all involved. While the bottom line may not be agreeable to all it makes more sense than what many of the news medias are putting out. It is a very good well written article.
John F. Pollinger says
I spent 30 years as a law enforcement officer in New Jersey, retiring as the Chief of Police in my home town. New Jersey Attorney General guidelines still in effect prohibit shooting at a motor vehicle unless it is a last resort to prevent death or serious injury to the officer or another person. Federal guidelines are not different. What I saw was a woman ignoring the order to get out of her car and attempting to leave. However, the agent that appeared to fire his weapon and use deadly force was in the front of the vehicle. Any claim by him or others his life was in danger does not hold up since he was required to get out of the way and could easily done so. An officer can not put themselves in harms way and then use deadly force as a result. In 2019, a Newark,NJ police Officer was sentenced to 26 years in prison for shooting and killing a person and wounding another as a result of a chase. A frame by frame review clearly shows both of his legs and body clear of the left front fender when he fired the first shot, striking the lower left windshield. As she drives past him, he fires two more times into the driver’s open window and I believe those were the fatal shots. At the time of the second two shots being fired, she was no longer a threat to him, even if you want to argue the first shot was justified. The immediate attempt by federal authorities to classify this as justified is a blatant act of a prejudicial statement. Had the driver fled the scene, she could have easily been charged at a later time. Instead, she was killed for no legal reason.
Florida LEO says
John, I think you are a nice guy but you are so far off on this it makes me glad you were not elected as sheriff here. I spend 25 years as a Florida law enforcement officer and I also reviews the video frame by frame. The “wife” of the driver yelled at her to drive away and the driver accelerated stricking the officer. Any leo would know that firing a single shot when you are being struck by an accelerating vehicle is not how we are trained. We are trained to fire to stop the threat. Ex law enforcement officers who spent their careers in cushy suburbs of leftist states in my mind are part of the problem. Probably better than you moved back there.
John F Pollinger says
Explain the second two shots, point blank through the driver’s window as she passed.
Pierre Tristam says
And boy, did those three shots stop the vehicle. I’m glad the retired “LEO” above, icily masked behind anonymity as John Pollinger is not, and whose little quotes around the word wife tells me all I need to know about his prejudices, is retired, along with his 1950s Bull Connorish training and contempt for more intelligent policing.
JimboXYZ says
“And boy, did those three shots stop the vehicle”
That much we do agree upon. The victim of this was the owner of the parked car the dead driver crashed into. This definitely could’ve been handled cleaner, as the Monday AM QB call after the playoff loss for an analogy. The officer could’ve & should’ve backed away to avoid being struck, not fired the rounds into the driver. Putting one’s self in harms way is also a choice in this case. See the authorities had the wild card in all of this that exited the vehicle as an angry lesbian. The “husband” drove away from the “wife”, arrest that “wife” and guess who has to show up to claim their “wife” ? The one that they wanted out of the vehicle in the 1st place to arrest with the “wife” can’t elude & flee, gotta go back sometime & claim the “wife” that would face her charges of obstruction. I hope they arrested the “wife” in that moment ? Maybe the chaos & she was somehow able to leave the scene of her crimes ?
The learning moments ? There are plenty of cases where a motor vehicle is perceived as a deadly weapon by LEO, the “husband” certainly would’ve had to have known that, if not she wasn’t paying attention for reading similar cases that have occurred for decades of their life. The husband knew there was a good chance she would leave a “widow” in this for striking an officer in the line of their duty. When some can’t connect dots that are that obvious, they are not victims, rather they are individuals that made poor choices for decisions, had no plan for a worst case scenario. What did the “husband & wife” think ? That they were going to obstruct & just get away with it ? Most folks when they see a high speed chase or a crime happening stand as far back to let that unfold to not be collateral damage for a victimization. No statue for the “husband”, maybe the “wife” leaves an annual roadside memorial ? How lucky/fortunate that the “wife” wasn’t able to get back into the car for her confrontational exiting of the passenger side of the vehicle as her role in the entire event of it all. She’s the one that advised her “husband” to drive on. this could’ve ended as 2 stupid or mentally ill LGBTQ types in the morgue to be cremated & buried. Surprising the LGBTQ organization of folks haven’t leveraged claims that it was somehow homophobic ? There’s bound to be one of those types that has a position & statement on it ? There always is when there’s a national spotlight for an event like this. Had these 2 been drug dealers or pedophiles, anyone really care ? I mean, the 60 & 15 year old in the recent news here for kidnapping & torturing an 11 year old like they did ? Process those folks for their crimes. Likewise for the MN event, bring charges to the “wife” she was complicit in the crime of obstruction. That’s connecting the dots, cleaning up the mess on this for a conclusion that is fitting for what occurred that day in MN.
DaleL says
Only one of the three shots were into the windshield, from the front. The other two shots were made as the vehicle was going past the officer into the open side window. The fatal shot to Renee Good’s head was one of those side shots.
I’ve watched three videos of the shooting. Two by citizen bystanders and one by the I.C.E. agent. The video by the agent indicates he was furious at the protesters, especially Good and her spouse. I think in a criminal prosecution, the case could be made that the I.C.E. agent manipulated the situation to justify shooting Good. The appropriate charge would be first degree murder.
In contrast to the fatal Good shooting, there was a more recent shooting of a Venezuelan man in his leg by an I.C.E. agent. In this shooting the agent appears to have been fully justified. It is important to keep in mind that not all I.C.E. agents are murderous thugs. Many, if not the large majority, want to do their job as well as they can.
Jack says
I think it was the most filmed unjustified killing in the world. I’ve seen at least 7 different videos.
At the beginning of the one video Good put it into gear and started to move, but a white vehicle darted in front of her. She was ready to move again but the ICE truck came up, so she waved them to go by.
Instead of driving by in the open lane the agents jumped out approaching Good angrily.
She feared them and rolled forward as she turned away.
Skibum says
Florida LEO, I think you are a probably nice guy, but I must agree with John and loudly disagree with you on this issue. I too am a retired LEO with 29 years under my belt, after having been a police officer and deputy sheriff in the L.A. area before moving up to WA where I spent the remainder of my career working for the state conducting law enforcement investigations. I retired with the rank of Lt.
You spoke of your training and examination of the shooting video, but it is interesting, to me at least, that you neglected to say anything about what YOUR law enforcement training taught you about officer safety and proper procedures when approaching or standing near an occupied vehicle in the street that had the engine running. Have you NEVER ever been told that you should never position yourself directly in front of or to the rear of such a vehicle because of the likelihood of injury, not knowing what the driver might do??? Beyond basic officer safety training, that is just common sense.
Secondly, after watching the video of the shooting multiple times, it is obvious to me that had the woman in the SUV intended on running over the ICE agent, she would have steered straight ahead rather than having the steering wheel turned to the right – shown by her front left tire which was turned to the right in order for her to go around the other vehicle and leave the scene. That indicates NO INTENTION to hit that ICE agent. Additionally, her driver’s window was rolled all the way down, her demeanor was non-confrontational and she actually was talking to one of the other ICE agents standing to the left of her vehicle and said “I’m not mad at you” just prior to her being shot. Her entire focus was on the ICE agent to her left that she was addressing when he attempted to open the driver’s door of her vehicle, and it could be argued that, with her focus on the agent to her left, she may not have even realized that the other one that ended up shooting her was so close to the front of her SUV. I believe the contact with that ICE agent was purely accidental as she tried to leave.
Above and beyond all of that, there is the elephant in the room, which is DOJ withholding all of the evidence from state and local law enforcement, and refusing to allow any of their law enforcement investigators or the local prosecutor be a part of the federal investigation, which is absolutely unheard of and highly suspicious! The ONLY reason for doing such a thing is to absolutely control the investigation and finesse the findings to whatever narrative they wish to put out rather than let the facts determine the outcome. No competent and ethical law enforcement officer should close their eyes and ears to reality and say that is any way to conduct an investigation, and if you don’t agree with something as simple as that… then I would only be able to conclude that your law enforcement background lacks an ethical component which is critical when it comes to morality and honesty.
Sherry says
Thank You Skibum! Your experience and wisdom should be an inspiration to each and every one of us!
Unfortunately, the passionate core Maga members have a life perspective built on fear and anger. Their foundational hate, first of themselves and then of others , is baked in and extremely difficult to heal.
People can change. They can be educated trained to see the bigger picture and to act in more civilized, positive way . Just as there are truly great law enforcement officers, there are also really terrible ones.
I’m wondering if the officer who killed Renee Good had untreated PTSD from that prior incident. Did the ICE system fail him before it failed Renee?
Willy James says
You need to check your eyes. The video (frame by frame) clearly showed that the ICE officer WAS NOT struck by Good. Further, the video clearly shoes the ICE officer walking without any limping as he walked towards the crash.
Sherry says
Thank you Willy James and Jack. . .
That is what I saw when studying the videos as well. Renee’s car did NOT strike anyone!
I’m thinking that is precisely why the trump people so quickly rushed to be on TV blaming that “domestic terrorist/fucking bitch” . Why haven’t we seen evidence of the ICE Shooter ‘s injuries? Why no cooperation with local authorities? In my mind the whole thing is one big “Cover Up” by the trump administration!
Come on Maga . . . post “credible factual proof” that I am wrong!
Jack says
The agent was not struck. The vehicle was rolling slow. From the side of the vehicle the agent put the barrel of the gun point blank at her face at the open window and fired shots two and three.
There was no threat to him when he fired those two shots.
Palm Coast Citizen says
If anything, seeing this has given me a more profound respect for local law enforcement officers, because why, if she was blocking the road, didn’t ICE engage local LEO? I thought ICE enforced immigration.
I cannot imagine local law enforcement to be standing in front of the vehicle, and from the various videos, it appears he was NOT struck. One video appears he’s struck by the vehicle, but the other view shows officers on the side of the vehicle quickly backing up–so we see that he wasn’t struck. He shot head-on, then again from the side as the vehicle appeared to be attempting to drive away.
The ICE agents were attempting to open her door and asking her to exit the vehicle. Why were they doing that? Is that normal for ICE?
Couldn’t she have been arrested by locals for obstruction? Couldn’t he have moved out of the way initially and let her go–provide plate to local LEO, or call for local LEO on the spot to detain her?
Skibum says
You are correct. The placement in front of that woman’s SUV was something one might expect of a rookie officer… or of someone who had the intent to escalate the situation to the exact outcome we all saw on the video in order for him to try to justify his use of deadly force.
Competent, trained officers do NOT intentionally place themselves directly in front of vehicles like shown on the video, because they are supposed to have had some type of officer safety training which teaches them how to handle many citizen contacts as safely as possible. A person inside of a vehicle, where the officer is unable to see what might be in their hands, not knowing what their intent is behind the wheel of a 2-ton potential weapon, can be extremely dangerous, so officer safety training should always include that kind of situation in order to train officers how not to get hurt.
The officer involved shooting would have been 100% preventable had it not been for the very poor, maybe intentional placement of that ICE officer.
JimboXYZ says
“Couldn’t she have been arrested by locals for obstruction?”
Apparently not in Minnesota, the land of Somali Day Care & Feeding Children Federal Program fraud & abuse. One expects Walz & Omar to make heroes out of being complicit with fraud & abuse, illegal immigration. The vote wh*res that they are to have ascended to Governor & Congress themselves. Stop rewarding, start punishing, may not end fraud & abuse, but it will deter it to some extent so it’s not as blatantly rampant ? That ype of fraud & abuse was the Biden-Harris prosperity.along with inflation that too many of us are still paying for going forward, a year after the Biden-Harris is long gone. Reversing Biden-Harris era of faux prosperity as the fraud & abuses of prosperity is irreversible in terms of the money, It’s going to take 4 years for Trump-Vance to discover it, end it all together. There’s more too. DOGE/Musk uncovered just the surface of it all. It’ll take more than 4 years of Trump-Vance & the costs to every American won’t ever be recouped. we’ll be paying for Covid era & Biden-Harris lies for decades, the rest of our lives.
Sherry says
Thank you John! There apparently are others who have been in “law enforcement” who need to remember that their job was to “serve and protect” ALL human beings first!! Their job included “protecting the lawful rights” of all persons in the US. Our democratic republic may be hanging by a thread but our courts are still upholding most of our “constitutional”freedoms .
trump has not been anointed as Dictator of us all. . . just “Lord and Master” of the Maga Cult!
Al says
Why didn’t John stay in Jersey? Answer because of lack of law enforcement which leads to a high crime rate. I grew up in Newark and it is a hellhole . As for the case discussed in this article she was ordered out of the car by law enforcement not a road rager. Completely different circumstances but why don’t we all just refuse to follow laws we don’t agree with. The sooner we get rid of the illegals the better off our country will be. Does anyone think that John the cop wouldn’t shoot me if I went in his house uninvited? If you don’t I own a bridge in Brooklyn that’s for sale.
DaleL says
Renee Good was ordered out of her car by an I.C.E. agent, not an officer charged with enforcing traffic regulations. Failure to comply with an illegal order is not a crime. Good and her spouse were not the target of the I.C.E. agents and not believed to be illegal immigrants. Good’s vehicle had a visible license plate and her identity could be determined.
The issue is not whether the law should be followed. It is how the law is to be enforced.
Palm Coast Citizen says
We need to understand this context as citizens. I don’t understand the jurisdiction of ICE here to even request she exit the vehicle. They were there for illegal immigrants, not protesters, no? While I imagine it was frustrating for them to have people interfere, I don’t know that they should be detaining protestors.
I think we need a national info campaign on what to do if confronted by an ICE agent. What if she was going to drive away? What if she wasn’t trying to block traffic? What if we’re caught in a similar situation–not via protest, but just in an area of protest?
JimboXYZ says
There’s this spin on what the Minnesota fraud & abuse is vs what it is really the problem there.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/woblxUWhZM4
End of the day we all know Walz, Omar & the same usual cast of idiots that brought us BLM Summer 2020 are funding these Karen LGBTQ protests watch the video of that mentally ill person. Challenge the laws of this nation for illegal immigration, fraud & abuse of Daycare Centers & Federal funding & one can easily see what Biden-Harris was all about. I don’t mind helping Americans out that our society has left behind & turned their backs on, as long as they aren’t pedophiles & alcohol abusers & legal Rx/illegal drug abusers for addicts. Get those people help. But when the fraud is an illegal that came to this nation that is fraud & abuse for obscene wealth gains. I draw the line on that. Maybe it’s because Biden’s own son Hunter is that borderline Epstein-like type of character, he has a soft spot for the cheats that aren’t playing by the rules. Don’t hear very much about Hunter these days, he got his “my Daddy” is POTUS Get out of jail free” pardon. He has to roll clean the rest of the way in his lifetime, ride out the Biden inheritance foundation/plan. I have to suspect someone is keeping tabs on Hunter, once a sh*t stain of a tax fraud, always will be that type of taxpayer. It’s one thing to have a system of tax loopholes, quite another to outright misstate income, for never declaring it like Hunter did. Hmmmmm, wonder why Obama & Biden have no opinion on this ?
Tired of it says
So you are ok with trump pardoning the Jan 6 rioters, the ex president indicted, tried and convicted in an American court for bringing in over 400 tons of drugs, the Chinese billionaire who defrauded American citizens but who trump does business with, but you are angry about Hunter Biden? You are ok with giving 20 billion of our tax dollars to Argentina, a country with no strategic values to he US , that has defaulted on 9 previous loans, while there is no money to subsidize healthcare for Americans. And you are also ok with the Saudis giving Jared $20 billion “to invest for them”, the same Saudis that gave us Bin Laden.
JimboXYZ says
No money to subsidize healthcare ? The healthcare industry needs to get their pricing in order instead of extorting lies of inflation for premiums & procedures. You’d be surprised what something ends of costing when there is no federal program paying out $ billions => $ trillions ? And since the fraud & abuse covers day care & food programs for children was quite the extensive money launder it is, how come no children received day care, no children were fed. Maybe there were Somalian children off site as children getting benefits thru those programs. Most call that raising their own families with the incomes they actually earned, not defrauded federal programs thru shell operations of fraudulent business entities ?
Skibum says
It is an exercise in futility to try to make sense out of nonsense. You might as well try to convince a rock that it is a tasty piece of fruit. Good luck with that!
Sherry says
@Skibum. . . jimboxyz and dennis r. are simply untethered from any kind of fact based reality. I no longer waste my time even reading their looney tunes tripe. Just sayin’. . . maybe you shouldn’t either.
Mike says
All of your comments usually start with imagine, if and or but. Stop being so far left and report the news. Crazy lady interjects herself into federal agents business and unfortunately pays the ultimate price. Moral of the story do your job and let officers do theirs and you will go home to your children tonight with no problems.
Pierre Tristam says
Yes massa.
https://youtu.be/YkgkThdzX-8
Al says
Hey Pierre stick up your arse. What a gay name you have.
Sherry says
@al Why are you here? Don’t like award winning Flaglerlive? Hate filled, ignorant name calling is the the last resort of those who have nothing “intelligent” to say! Please post your filthy Maga garbage someplace else !
DaleL says
AI, I am confused. What does a “name” have to do with this discussion? For that matter what does sex or sexual orientation have to do with it? I recommend that you consider following the advice in Proverbs 17:28. The New International Version is: “Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue.”
I do not believe that an I.C.E. agent’s “job” is traffic enforcement. It is certainly not to kill a “crazy lady”.
Fraud & abuse of Daycare Centers & Federal funding is alleged. Proof has not been shown.
Our pedophile protector president demonstrated his respect for his office by flipping off an auto worker recently. He could have ordered the release of the Epstein files, as he promised on the campaign trail, at any time. Instead Congress had to pass a law to order the release. Even with the law, DOJ appears to be violating the law to release all the files/documents.
We don’t hear much about Hunter, Hunter, Hunter, or Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi now, because it is the felon in chief who is president. The guy who promised to release his tax returns. When will we see those? The guy who pardoned among others: violent rioters, the drug pushing former Honduran president, etc.
YankeeExPat says
Very commendable AL,……you bravely coming out publicly with your new found bromance with our esteemed Editor Pierre !
Perhaps a bouquet of Roses and a box of Godiva Chocolates are in order.
Don’t be coy, now that you are in the community Gaydar you should receive your Rainbow bumper sticker in five to ten business days.
John Paul Young 1977 ” Love is in the Air ”
https://youtu.be/TInrBuCcuFY?si=3Pm0AazfBsHd2tKq
Kennan says
This what you resort to when you have no facts, no understanding, and no clue.
Most racists at least try to be anonymous, not you though. Hi my names Al!! I want everyone to know what an ignorant sheep I am!!! Thanx Al. Very forthcoming.
Palm Coast Citizen says
It’s true, we should be compliant to let officers do their job–stay out of their way and choose not to fight for our constitutional rights in those moments only to ensure we are safe. It’s a safety thing–their requests may be out of line, but just comply.
That said, we have to hold government officials accountable and whether she was showing up on January 6th and attempting to block officers from coming to the White House or blocking ICE from the school, how this unfolded should raise all of our eyebrows.
Whether the person is “on the wrong side” of our opinions or not, we shouldn’t be okay with the fact that a mother of a 6 year old, thinking she was protecting families–whether we agree with the policy or not–should have been shot multiple times while apparantly driving away.
We’re all being gaslit to some extent, and asking whether this was an appropriate measure is true to how we function as a free nation and keep vigilant of government control over citizens.
Tired of it says
I wonder how many of these commenters actually know or have been affected by the existence or the action of any illegal. They are ok as long as they are here to clean my house/hotel room, cut my lawn, pick the crops that feed me, put on my roof, babysit my kids, in other words, as long as they are useful to me. They parrot the misinformation fed to them by Faux about all the benefits given to them , none of it true or factual. As fr the shootings…they are just fine with masked men, many in civilian clothes assaulting and killing people, some even Americans in the name of some perverted version of our laws. Our cities have become battle grounds and while trump defends the protesters in Iran and pardons the January 6 rioters, he and them are perfectly fine with our own citizens being killed.
The dude says
This one sure brought the bigoted, old white guys running.
Pierre’s milkshake brings all the MAGA to the yard…
Atwp says
She being dead isn’t good. Who was wrong I don’t know. Am glad she wasn’t an African American. Me getting upset about her death I’m not. Am sure most if the ice agents are white men, Thayer can and probably do anything they want to do, they will probably get pardoned by Trump. Did people protest when my people were lynched, denied, burned, raped, probably not. White men did all of that dirt and got away with their dirty deeds. Why would I go in the streets and protest against a white man killing a white woman I would look unwise doing that, I’m not going to do that. I don’t think white people were protesting when my people were being murdered by the white man. They were happy to see it happening. Me protesting against any white person being murdered I will not do that. Ice might kill me, what will the white people do?
Laurel says
BillC, where are you?
PaulT says
Nice analysis Pierre and the comparison with Stand Your Ground cases would be relevant if this case was in any way normal. But it’s not. ICE contaminated the crime scene and refused to co-operate with local law enforcement who have now been shut out of the investigation by the FBL Kristy Nome at DHS claims (without evidence) the victim was a domestic terrorist while our VP JD Vance say’s the shooter has absolute immunity. Right now there is no due process.
This is entirely political and has very little to do with immigration enforcement.
Trump’s emnity for Somalis is public knowledge, the Somali community in Minnesota consists almost entirely of legal residents so doesn’t justify sending in a small army of militarised and extremely agressive bully boys. The DHS aim is clear, to disrupt a liberal majority city, provoke a reaction and then scream ‘domestic terrorists’. Stephen Miller is mutter about The Insurrection Act but the reason the Trump administration is doing this is to terrorize anyone who opposes his regime. It’s violence in pursuit of intimidating the population, a standard tactic for an authoritarian regime.
Laurel says
Chaos, then Insurrection, then Marshall Law, then no election. He’s trying. No Epstein files. No need for evidence, his loyal don’t require it.
This is not just little to do with immigration enforcement, it has nothing to do with immigration enforcement. It is about fear and intimidation of U.S. citizens, and getting rid of his perceived enemies, just as Hitler did. The Jews were Hitler’s perceived enemies, though they were only 2% of the German population. They were mostly in charge of the banks, so that was Hitler’s in. Trump uses U.S. Somali citizens in the same way. He calls immigrants rapists, murderers, drug dealers, and sent from insane asylums. Incredible.
Someone here commented that Minnesotans should mind their own business. They were minding their own business, Trump should mind his.
Me says
Well said.
Laurel says
Interesting. The responses by some folks here show open bias, therefore, the “fucking bitch” is wrong.
A woman should not have to get out of her car simply because she was ordered to do so by unmarked, masked men in battle gear. I believe that here, in Florida, a woman who is threatened by an unknown, armed man coming at her, in fear for her life, she has the right to shoot him through her car window. She would legally be standing her ground.
The Stand Your Ground Law is not logical in this case. The ICE Agent was not threatened. One does not stand in front of a moving vehicle (common sense) and claim to stand his ground! Especially, when in fact, he could have stepped aside and waved her through. The ICE Agent caused the threat, as he should not have incapacitated a driver of a moving vehicle in a public surrounding. When the driver was shot dead, in a moving vehicle, even at 5 mph, the vehicle became the threat when the driver could no longer manage it, and it wandered off in an unknown direction until it hit a car. It could have hit anyone in the way at that point.
The ICE Agent was responsible for the tragedy. Good’s children are motherless because of his action. Good was allowed, as a citizen, to be on a public street to drop off her child at school.
If he is convicted, I am quite confident that Trump will attempt to pardon him, as Trump will only see the agent as his loyalist, since he cares only for that. The responses from him, Noem and Vance were untimely and prejudiced.
Some folks here seem to think that anything Trump does is perfectly acceptable. It is not. He is the cause of the un-American behavior in Minnesota. To understand his actions, I recommend the commenters here to go to Netflix and start watching the documentary “Hitler and the Nazis, Evil on Trial” about the rise of the right wing Nazi regime, and the Nuremberg Trials, and learn a little about history. What is happening here, now, has happened before. The parallels between that time and now are blatant, and numerous, and there are many here who need to see it, even if it causes discomfort. Actually, discomfort would be a good reaction. Educate yourselves. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.
Sherry says
Thank You Laurel! Maga trying to “defend the indefensible” really sums up this entire back and forth of this discussion. Excellent comments!
It really is all about trump doing all he can to “provoke” our populace so that he can play dictator and declare “Marshall Law” so that Maga and he can stay in office until he croaks. That would be just fine with Maga. . . Right Maga?
Marlee says
I can NOT believe how many on this Comment page
believe in ALL the Chaos that trump creates!
Pogo says
@The trolls
… have become a treatment resistant bacteria, and Trump their chancre. They are disgusting, intentionally.
Carry on girls and boys — we smell you.
Stephen Woodin, Sr says
IF-SHE-HAD-NOT-BEEN-THERE-TO-AGITATE-SHE-WOULD-NOT-BE-DEAD!
Left wing rag, never anything written that is politically neutral!
Pierre Tristam says
So says the man who’d say the same about James Chaney, Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman, Allison Krause, Jeffrey Glen Miller, Sandra Lee Scheuer, William Knox Schroeder, Phillip Gibbs, James Earl Green, George Floyd, and so on and so forth: a list in need of a database to keep up, as with the submissive immoralities of commenters nostalgic for fascism.
Laurel says
Stephen Woodin, Sr.: Telling the masked, armed, unidentified man in battle garb “I’m not mad at you” while trying to turn around is not agitation. ICE being in Minneapolis is planned, directed agitation, but you prefer to condemn the dead victim, who is no longer around to defend herself.
Do you realize it is our Constitutional right to protest? Is that right offensive to you? Maybe it’s the Constitution that offends you? If you think that the Constitution is “left wing,” then place this Independent on the left.
Had your father not met your mother, you would not be here to make such an absurd comment.
Sherry says
@stephen. . . what does it say about you that you spend your precious time reading something you hate? Is your self loathing so far gone that you need fuel for your negativity and fear? No worries, you can just crawl back under your rock now.
Skibum says
If the ICE agent had not been so ignorant of common officer safety training HE would not have needed to shoot into an occupied vehicle and kill that woman! Especially considering only six months ago he was dragged more than 100 feet in the roadway by yet another driver who he had confronted. Apparently he had learned nothing from that experience!
Here’s the lesson for him: When you fail to learn from history, you are destined to repeat it. If I were his supervisor… and believe me, I have supervised many, many line officers in my career… I would take him away from his street duties and put him somewhere else, possibly inside, to reflect on his poor choices and officer safety deficiencies before he gets himself, other officers or the public injured or killed due to his own actions.
Roy says
Stand your ground discourages people from FAFO behavior. Don’t start none, won’t be none. An armed society is a polite society. There’s a big reason why the incidents you see up in Minneapolis simply do not happen here. People know their antagonist behavior will not be tolerated in this state. You can protest peacefully. That means holding signs on the side of the road, not impeding traffic. That doesn’t mean actively interfering with law enforcement. That doesn’t mean being confrontational.
Laurel says
Roy: Nice try. Trump’s brown shirts are not here because it’s a red state these days. Do you really believe that Minnesota has more crime than Florida? That’s very naive. Give it time. He has already gone from “the worst of the worst” to U.S. citizens. It will get worse under his control. Minnesota was functioning normally until he came in, and then the killing and maiming began. Whether you like him or not, you cannot honestly claim otherwise. He is lying to you; don’t lie to yourself as well.
So, what would you do, if you saw a young 105 pound neighbor shot in the eye, blinded for life for holding a megaphone? Would you just stand by and say “oh well, he shouldn’t have a megaphone, he has no right to shout”? You wouldn’t get angry, you would just stand by with your sign. Peaceful protest. That’s what you’re saying. Good luck with that.
It’s the Federal government, that does not have the legal right to be there without request for help from the Governor. Plain and simple, Trump is the shit stirrer, and he wants to escalate so he can call Marshall Law. He is not stopping crime; he continues to commit crimes.
Skibum says
Oh boy, Roy! Where to begin? Your comment that “An armed society is a polite society” is certainly looking at the world through rose colored lenses and only seeing what you would like to believe. Nothing about that statement is close to reality!
Just look at countries where nearly every adult male has a weapon, usually an assault rifle, riding around in the back of pickup trucks in groups, often shooting their weapons into the air at random. Polite society?
Nearly every adult male in America back in the wild west days participated in “an armed society”, when criminals knew lawmen and regular citizens were armed, yet that didn’t stop to give criminals pause before committing bank robberies, stage robberies, or murders, did it? Gamblers and just your average drunkards in saloons were involved in disputes that escalated into gunfights in saloons or in the middle of the town streets over even minor slights… or a wrong look from a stranger. Even those who were referred to as “gentlemen” called out other “gentleman” and challenged them to a duel to the death when they felt embarrassed, cheated or their version of “honor” was at stake. Polite society?
Apparently, Roy, some people have learned NOTHING from history! Guns don’t make our lives safer by having every Tom, Dick and Harry walking around in public like they are the living, real life version of Dirty Harry. There are more guns floating around in America than there are people, so if it were true that guns were in fact the answer to all of our crime problems, America would be the safest place on the planet. Sadly, that is not the case now, is it???
So much for your “polite society” fantasy.
And by the way, there is no state or federal crime called “being confrontational”, whatever that means. That is only YOU saying it, not what the law says when it comes to what kind of “confrontation” is allowed by the U.S. Constitution for peaceful protests. I have been face to face with many confrontational protesters during my long law enforcement career… I didn’t need to shoot even one of them. I survived, and they did too.
Laurel says
Perfect, Skibum!
I’m torn between trying to figure out whether Trump loyalists are loyalists because they cannot process thought beyond their bubble, unable to learn beyond a particular limit, or if they know better and are actively choosing to ignore facts and evidence, and choose to align themselves with the felon grifter. I see both possibilities in these threads.
Can it be both? I think maybe so.
Kath m says
When will you people wake up ! The law is law ! Every president has a duty to enforce the law !!! Clinton did it ,Obama did it ,Biden, Both bushes, we have never had a president,that didn’t deport. …if he doesn’t. HE IS THEN BRAKING THE LAW…any police officer not rounding them up or turning them over , is braking the law. If law enforcement did their job we ,would not be in this mess
And these protesters need to go to jail, you have a right to legal protest. But what they are doing ,is illegal. You can not blow horns in state of Florida on vehicle. , if you blow whistles and ,you are basically tell,a illegal. Here comes ice , . you can legally be charged for warning a illegal. If my neighbor is a criminal and I yell cops. That’s aiding and embedding. .give him time to run or escape. Is felony. If someone gets hurt . That’s another charge. If a police officer tells you to back up. And you don’t that is another charge. Pull your car across a road is a charge.. put a poor dog in a car ,with the windows down slamming on brakes .screaming yelling out windows, blowing horns . Throwing things .should be animal cruelty. Where is all the animal lovers. Where is Peta . Laws are laws we have a constitution. And it’s not getting change at all ,any time soon .so grow up. This is not rocket science people. This is called common sense. You people act like spoiled children that got told you can not have dessert because you didn’t finish your meal. Plus the rules and laws matter, to have a society as we know it. Let’s get it together. And act like adults 🙄 not children.
Sherry says
@kath. . .Convicted Criminals and Sexual Abusers also should be in jail, right??? Then did you obviously vote for one? SMH!!!!
Laurel says
Kath m is “aiding and embedding” Trump. She has no idea how correct she is!
How am I suppose to take comments like that seriously?
And that’s why they love him.
Skibum says
Kath, you SHOULD have made your comments in reference to the Jan. 6 insurrectionist rioters. You should have made your comments in anger about the convicted felon prez issuing presidential pardons to thousands of convicted felons who had been serving federal sentences after being convicted by their peers for injuring more than 140 federal and local law enforcement officers who were trying their best to protect the members of Congress and VP Vance at the U.S. Capitol that day.
Where is your outrage about that? Where is your support for law enforcement and the rule of law regarding the Jan. 6 insurrection? You say you support law enforcement? You don’t like law breakers? But all you can come out against are the Americans who have the courage to stand up to a dictatorial convicted felon in the WH and his brutal, aggressive gestapo like thugs masquerading as federal ICE agents “doing their job”?
It is obvious to me as a long-time law enforcement professional that YOU don’t know squat about what actual LAW ENFORECEMENT is supposed to look like, or you wouldn’t be spewing rubbish, lies and fauxinfotainment talking points that should be prefaced with “Once upon a time…” WAKE UP!
Laurel says
I think she should cut down on the caffeine, or whatever.
Skibum says
Much has already been said about the fatal shooting of Renee Good by an ICE agent. Very little has been discussed about the actions of ICE immediately afterward, and that is what I’d like to talk about for a minute, and why it is so critically important that federal law enforcement agencies work in conjunction with local law enforcement during their operations like what is ongoing in Minneapolis and many other cities and states.
Whenever an officer involved shooting incident occurs, immediately afterward the officers on scene are both trained, and have a duty to give basic first aid to the person who is shot while waiting for fire and medical personnel to arrive and take over the medical care and treatment. If someone approaches the scene and identifies themselves as a doctor or nurse, requesting permission to be of assistance, that person is always allowed to approach the person shot and give whatever medical treatment they are able to provide until on-duty paramedics or EMTs can get to the scene with their medical equipment.
After this shooting incident by the federal agent and subsequent to Good’s vehicle rolling into the parked car and utility pole, someone approached one of the ICE agents who was in the street and identified himself as a doctor. He pleaded with ICE to let him approach Good’s vehicle to check for a pulse and provide whatever lifesaving medical treatment he could until first responders arrived. ICE refused to allow him to check on Good despite he repeated pleas that he was a doctor.
I don’t know how long it took ambulance personnel to respond to the shooting scene in the snow that day, but upon their arrival, ICE forced the ambulance to stop nearly a block away from where the shooting victim was located. EMT personnel had to walk through the snow and ice to where her vehicle was, not because they couldn’t drive to where the car impacted the utility pole, but because ICE refused to allow the ambulance to get closer. They could not take their stretcher, so after walking to Good’s vehicle and determining that she needed immediate hospitalization, medical personnel and ICE carried her by her arms and legs back through the snow and ice to the ambulance, wasting precious time, without the necessary medical equipment readily available that is in the ambulance to treat patients. That is NOT how it is supposed to work… ever!
Local law enforcement agencies work closely with their fire department and medical personnel, allowing whatever equipment and emergency personnel deemed necessary to have access to a shooting scene because lifesaving efforts ALWAYS come before crime scene preservation and investigation! Had the ICE agents in Minneapolis been working in conjunction with local law enforcement that day, letting local officers handle at least the lifesaving efforts, allowing the doctor to check Good’s injuries, and making sure that fire department and ambulance personnel were given unrestricted access to the scene so that proper and immediate medical treatment was given to the shooting victim, maybe she would have had a better chance to survive her wounds.
What is important to understand is that ICE agents do not have the experience, equipment and procedures to handle incidents like this on their own without the assistance of local law enforcement. Not only could the shooting itself been avoided if the ICE agent who shot Good used better judgement, the delay in getting emergency medical treatment for Good is completely unjustifiable and unethical, and defies common sense and normal procedure for law enforcement agencies all across America… local law enforcement knows better!
ICE and their higher ups have intentionally shut out local law enforcement from their operations, and now in the after shooting investigation. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the convicted felon president himself has ordered this, telling his sycophants and underlings that if any of the federal agents involved in the aggressive and brutal street operations face federal criminal charges, he would simply pardon them like he did for the thousands of Jan. 6 rioters. But he cannot issue a presidential pardon for STATE CRIMINAL CHARGES, and that is why I believe they are refusing to allow local and state investigators to be included in the shooting investigation. I think they are intentionally making it extremely difficult for the State of Minnesota to even explore potential criminal charges because there would be no way to protect federal officers who engage in brutal and illegal acts that are not only overlooked, but encouraged, by the convicted felon in the WH and Kristi Noem.
Laurel says
Trump, and his minions, are too busy deflecting by “investigating” every Democrat they can dream up, and Good’s wife. Maybe they can investigate Good’s dog while they are at it.
Ep, Ep, Epstein files? “Promises made, promises kept”?
Chaos and litigation, The Trump way of governing. Dividing us at every, possible opportunity. Call in the military! Those Minnesotans are out of hand (I thought he liked Scandinavians. Whoops, he learned they are not the “poorly educated” he loves).
Sherry says
@ Dear Skibum. . . Such an excellent analysis!
You’ve put your finger on precisely why the federal agencies are NOT cooperating with and sharing evidence with local and state law enforcement. They are doing absolutely everything they can to make sure the ICE agent is NOT held accountable for killing an innocent US citizen!
RobdaSlob says
Pierre enjoyed the thought provoking article however I am left with a couple thoughts:
I believe it was St. Francis of Assisi that said “understand, rather than to be understood”. Both Good and Ross deserve a fair and unbiased investigation into this shooting. With it in hand we could all understand. Yet it seems everyone has judged based off their political perspective, limited view of video’s and social media posts. No effort to understand.
For the most part ICE protestors have been civil and peaceful yet some subset seek violence and attack ICE. When events like this occur, it is incumbent on all of to make the call to de-escalate.
Laurel says
Shooting a kid, point blank in the face, from a couple of feet away, in the eye, blinding him for life for yelling though a megaphone, is not “civil and peaceful.” Coming into a city, without request, with unmarked, masked men dressed in battle garb, throwing people to the ground, breaking car windows to pull people out is not “civil and peaceful.” Calling a dead woman a “fucking bitch” is not “civil and peaceful.” Purposefully preventing medical care to the injured is not “civil and peaceful.”
Get on YouTube and you can watch for yourself all the “civil and peaceful” activities these ICE agents are participating in.
What you wrote is a nice thought, and under normal circumstances, logical. However, this behavior is not normal. This activity is intentionally created to cause chaos and fear in the citizens. Many are afraid to come outside, afraid to go to work, afraid to go to school, as they fear what they may encounter from these agents. Businesses are suffering by losing patrons. School attendance is way down. All unnecessary chaos created by the President.
None of this is “civil or peaceful,” and the President of the United States is doing what he can to inflame it. He will continue to escalate it.
Skibum says
Yes, he continues to inflame American cities, and more recently, our allies, NATO countries with his “I want Greenland” nonsense. And he even goes so far as to connect his demand for Greenland to not being awarded a Nobel peace prize! Wow, Norway called that right and dodged an embarrassing incident, didn’t they!?
Laurel says
He’s a selfish, little brat, and people are afraid to give him a “time out” in the corner.
Baker Act the ass, and remove the dumbest cabinet we’ve ever had.
Now he’s on his way to Dabos, to make a fool out of himself and us, simply because he wants Greenland for himself.
Laurel says
Davos. Sorry, I tend to switch my “b”s and “v”s around, usually only when talking
Oh well.
Laurel says
RobdaSlob: My apologies, I misread “…ICE protestors have been civil and peaceful…” as “…ICE agents…”.
My bad! That being said, I agree with you, and the Federal Government should be sharing evidence with local authorities, working side by side in an investigation.
Bel says
Excellent article. People can argue over the legality of the shooting—though there are multiple angles of video that clearly show the interaction between the agent and Ms. Good, and the agent positioning himself in front of the vehicle after obtaining its identifying information. However, I think most of us can agree that we drop off our children at school planning to see them later, not planning to kill an ICE agent within ten minutes of kissing our six-year-old. One cannot argue the morality of the killing; you have to be a certain type of “human” to believe this murder is justifiable.
To defend the agent ( who is a seasoned agent) shooting Ms.Good three times at point-blank range is to defend murder itself. There is no moral defense for it.
Endless dark money says
Gestapo are terrorist out spreading orange terror. You see IcE tear-gassed a baby. It dead. Murikkka
John F Pollinger says
One of the smartest things I’ve heard regarding the killing of Renee Good by Jonathan Ross came from Andrew Weissman, a career DOJ prosecutor and now an NYU Law professor. He said if he were prosecuting the case, he wouldn’t deal with the first shot. It’s too murky. Was she driving forward or trying to get away?
Did the ICE agent fear for his life or didn’t he? Instead, Weisseman would focus on shots two and three, which were fired from the side of the car, reaching through the driver-side window and pointblank in the victim’s head. It’s indisputable that the ICE agent was *not* in danger at that time.
Combined with his calling Renee a “F-ing
B” (on video) as her SUV rolled ahead, it would be easy to make the case that he fired his gun the second and third times out of hostility or rage or frustration, but certainly not as an act of self-defense.
Laurel says
Yes. Federal Government sanctioned, and paid, road rage.
John Calvin says
You actually wrote that it was the ICE agent that escalated the situation? When this is adjudicated once again it will be shown you to be on the wrong side of the decision.
Kennan says
Quite simply not true. Yes, an investigation is important.An unblocked. Unbridled investigation. Based on all the video evidence so far, it is quite obvious that a murder took place. The question now is whether it is first-degree, second-degree, or whatever other legal definition, the courts come up with. I’m not a lawyer, but murder is murder. We have a treasure trove of evidence that regard.