Airport Advisory Council meetings are not usually the most enthralling spectacles as volunteer government advisory panels go: the five council members and their alternate meet monthly on the top floor of the Airport Corporate Center, hear a report from the airport director, hear from the air traffic control tower manager, review airport fuel sales for the past month and other routine items.
But Chairman Daryl Hickman and Vice-chairman Les Abend of the advisory board startled the County Commission–which appoints them–earlier this month when both offered serious criticism of Roy Sieger, the airport director, over airport noise concerns, which have been roiling communities surrounding the airport for the past few years. Both claimed the advisory committee had been proposing measures to address residents’ concerns, but that Sieger had not been responsive.
Alleged non-responsiveness over noise wasn’t the only issue: the board and Sieger are simply not seeing eye to eye, while the board and the county administration might as well have been in different worlds. “I have little or no knowledge of the concerns of this board,” County Administrator Jerry Cameron said flatly this afternoon.
Today was the first opportunity for the full advisory board to be at the same table with Sieger since that commission meeting. And because of the criticism leveled at one of his top managers at that meeting, Cameron, who does not routinely attend advisory board meetings, showed up for this one as an entirely different issue took center stage: the lack of a strategic plan or a business for the airport. Some advisory board members are seeing operations run more haphazardly than along a defined plan, and in directions that may not be grounded on fresh, valid data.
Like a senator at a hearing, Hickman posed question after question to Sieger, who answered them one after the other, at times defensively: “I don’t know where we’re going with this,” he said. “I guess you can ask all the questions you want but at the end of the day the Board of County Commissioners has already approved” the design. Hickman persisted, saying “a number of things” have changed since the plan was first proposed, including financial and construction burdens on the county that did not exist before the terminal plan was first proposed, such as the need for a new sheriff’s operations center (even though those needs are drawn from entirely different money pots). Hickman said it wasn’t a bad thing for reconsidering the plans.
“It is an optics issue when the county has all these financial needs and we can show maybe a justification for this scale of a building,” Hickman said. “But in talking to airport users, there’s a concern that it’s going to be too big of a building.” He added: “The data in the master plan that projects what the size of this building should be, is flawed.”
The design is almost 90 percent done, though Sieger did not know how much had actually been spent so far. He said if the design were altered, it would cost additional dollars, and the Florida Department of Transportation, which is paying for the design, will not fund the redesign.
Then Cameron came to the plan’s defense. “We don’t put ad valorem money into it, it is an enterprise fund, completely separate to it,” Cameron said. “I want to stay focused on whether or not the resources we’re putting in are appropriate for projected growth.” He added: “It clouds the issue if we’re talking about something that’s happening in a different universe, which is the Sheriff’s Operations Center.”
Hickman cited as an example the dearth of hangars at the airport, and the waiting list thick with people who’d like to be based locally but can’t, because of a lack of hangars. There are fewer than 100 planes based at the airport. “The way that the numbers are being generated is also a concern” he said, the numbers being based not on plans “domiciled” locally. (He saw no sense in placing a trucking company in a hangar when a hangar came open.) “We need to go back and look at this again with clear eyes,” he said, and with eyes that look at strategic goals and existing challenges, such as the shortage of hangars. “Take a pause here, let’s go back, take a look at the numbers, do the numbers justify what we’re asking for.”
“I want to see a plan,” he concluded, specifying that a five-year plan should be developed.
When the discussion returned to airport matters, Frank Ayers came to Sieger’s defense, projecting growth ahead, and therefore more airport activity, especially corporate jets, whose occupants he described as “fat cats,” but “they’re the ones who hire 1,000 and 2,000 and 3,000 people.” Martin Stohr, the alternate board member, also came to the defense of Sieger. (The advisory board appears divided on the Sieger matter, with Ayers and Agnes Lightfoot on one side and Hickman, Abend and Harrison on the other. Toward the end of the meeting Ayers and Lightfoot asked that in future, board members addressing the county commission clearly state whether they are offering their own opinions or that of the board, the latter having to be ratified by vote beforehand.)
Only then Hickman moved on to the noise issue on the agenda, and immediately leveled criticism at airport documentation, available for public inspection online, for being inaccurate and still not corrected despite recommendations from the board that it be so. “If we asked for this to be changed in April, how come it hasn’t been done?”
“I haven’t gotten to it,” Sieger said.
Cameron didn’t like Hickman’s suggestion that nothing had been done since the commission meeting where noise issues were the focus of the agenda. “There isn’t a formal relationship between this board and county administration,” Cameron said, suggesting that a lack of communications may be at fault (though Sieger is listed as the liaison between the commission and the advisory board). There have been discussions with Sieger, Cameron said. The administrator has asked for a meeting with all the flight schools’ officials. And he said he asked for today’s meeting, though it was a regularly scheduled meeting of the advisory board.
“We are exploring some things,” Cameron said. “I personally like the change of the times” when pilots are in training around the airport. “There’s no doubt that we can make some improvements in procedures. Some are facilities improvement. At the end of the day we can’t guarantee that it’s going to get the results” that neighbors want.
Cameron said he’d gotten the copy of the board’s bylaws only yesterday. He described them as “anemic,” and “the formula for confusion.” He said “it’s inconceivable” that the board doesn’t have a formal, defined relationship between the advisory board and the airport director. Les Abend, an advisory board member, said he’d been an advocate of changing the bylaws. Cameron said he’ll ask county commission to direct County Attorney Al Hadeed to review and rewrite the bylaws. “The board has to instruct him. I see no problem with that, and I see no problem with him getting an informal head start,” Cameron said of Hadeed. But before that step, Cameron wants to sit with “a group of you,” meaning the advisory board, and with Sieger. “Anybody that reads this will know that it’s deficient. It really doesn’t say much,” Cameron said of the bylaws.
One possibility: assigning a county commissioner to be the liaison with the advisory board.
Yet another issue arose toward the end of the meeting: the lack of a policy requiring pilots to tie down their planes, especially in inclement weather. That led to another tense exchange between Hickman and Sieger.
“Message received,” Cameron said.
Cameron said in order for the advisory board to “function well, it really needs to have a good relationship with the county commission and the airport director.”
Clearly, that’s not the case at the moment.
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Dennis says
Guess what, it’s noisy by an airport. You knew that when you bought or build your home. Quit your crying. It’s your mistake. Live with it.
Ronnie says
Let the buyer beware!
The Voice Of Reason says
Boy,
There sure seems to be a vocal faction that takes glee in the airport neighborhood residents misery. It gives off an unpleasant odor. One that perhaps has a fiscal interest in business as usual. The neighbors don’t want a shutdown of the flight school operations yet, just a reasonable compromise that is achieved in neighborly good faith. Too much of the schools behavior has thus far reflected a middle finger to the concerns of the residents quality of life. Can’t we all just get along. Lets work this out. The advisory board should be listened to. Adjustments can be made to address the issues.
Gina Weiss says
Voice Of Reason: On Spot! Look at how they RUN to Roy’s defense! Disgusting, vile people, especially since one of the flight schools reps who was at this meeting reports that he is willing to do anything which would help the situation, and at another past meeting with the commissioners Mr. Hickman reports that when he asked another flight school rep if he was ever given a white piece of paper from Roy that consisted of “good neighbor” advisory board policies the rep reports that he never saw the paper and never even knew that such a paper even exist. Something smells rotten in Flagler county!
Dave says
I suppose all the residents that live anywhere near us1 should make a big deal about the train noise that you can hear all hours of the day and night !?
Stop being ridiculous and acting as if some airplane noise in the sky is ruining your quality of life ,it sounds really silly.
Jay Siciliani says
For your information, a Factual statement: at the commissioners meeting that you obviously did not attend, complaints also came from the U,K,C and the Mondex area, some of these areas are over five miles away from the airport. Would you like to explain why these people that live nowhere near the airport have noise issues with the flight schools?
Dave says
Looks like lots more activity planed for the future of this airport, very exciting!!!
Also looks like there isnt much they can do about the noise according to Cameron.
Lots more air traffick and employment is great for the economy!
Ronnie says
Yes, it is great to see the airport growing.
Gina Weiss says
“Step right up ladies and gentlemen, you are all invited to Roy Siegler’s Airport Circus featuring Roy himself as the main clown act.” We do not need a 6 million dollar( cha ching cha ching ) “corporate building” to entertain Roy’s “fat cats” for their weekend endeavors. And whom may I ask is going to foot the bill for this? Talk about a “disconnect” Roy has with his own advisory board and BOCC . Roy has a BIGGER unhealthy disconnect with this community, his airport neighbors and our environment which he couldn’t care less about with his flight school overflights causing negative impacts on peoples health, our wildlife and environment. And the airport houses a trucking company? Instead of making room in its hangers for peoples well kept well functioning planes! All while we have “tin can planes” from flight schools soaring over our heads and neighborhood!!! And I would like to know how often these planes are checked for safety!
Bill says
The “Bill a 6 million dollar( cha ching cha ching ) “corporate building” WILL be paid for out of DOT fund’s and Airport funds ( airport funds come from Fuel sales, Rents and other monies collected at the Airport). NOT Flagler county taxes. Flight schools from either on the airport or from others have been using this Airport for DECADES. As for the “trucking company” it was misrepresented as a NON-Aviation. It in fact is not a standard trucking company BUT a Aviation fuel emergency response one with contracts to the military. As for aircraft safety checks I believe there is a FAA rule on that of yearly. Bottom line one moves next to a Airport expect to hear Aircraft over your home.
Gina Weiss says
Bill and Dave: I find it quite amusing about how the 2 of you totally misconstrued the above article on your o behalf and for your own benefits. Did the 2 of you not know about Roy’s mismanagement at the airport and his disconnect with his own advisory board and BOCC: inaccuracy of airport documentation for the public to view, lack of policy requiring pilots to tie down their planes, no justification for the scale of a corporate building-flawed data in the master plan, no business plan or what the plan will look like when its done, are resources appropriate for projected growth? And we can only hope as with all of these other problems as mentioned that these planes ARE being checked as you believe yearly, we would like to see documentation about that.
Carson Lynn says
Another cluster f. The village idiots?
palmcoaster says
Thank you Mr. Daryl Hickman as you are a pilot and instructor yourself and have the residents genuine complaints in your realistic and compassionate approach. They do not expect the airport to cease operations or the pilot schools to go elsewhere they just want a little collaboration to resolve a nuisance that I know was not endured before FCBOCC welcomed all those schools in 2004. I knew then, sooner or later the surrounding residents quality of life will be compromised.
My other concern arise from this meeting as reported is the confusing expansion airport funding and I suspect underlines of the county still building castles to themselves with our hard earned taxes this time an airport castle. This time the new building disclosure can’t be called just Taj-Mahal as we had to pay for 3 already, maybe named #4? The blurry financial funds used for the airport enterprise need to be clarified to the FC taxpayers…same as happen with the Plantation Bay utility that was to be funded by their users only and nbow we are all stuck with over 15 millions debt. I also read the new radar tower cost of 1.1 million at least to be funded by county…or the enterpise? What is the real game here? Stop lying and cover ups FCBOCC and administrator just to delapidate our hard earned taxes in frivolous investments benefiting the few while denying the population the services we pay you for by not funding the sheriff requested $600,000 for needed additional traffic units and our Evac helicopter 24-7 full time service. At least reduce the airport noise nuisance to the residents!
Dave says
The noise is going nowhere just incase you didnt read the story above, Cameron clearly stated , “Nothing can probably be done about the noise that will make residents happy.
Also if you didnt read , the airport is expanding big time and along with the county they are trying to increase the air traffick not reduce it.
Jay Siciliani says
I was at the meeting and there are plans in the works to reduce the air traffic over the neighborhoods. There were some very interesting safety issues brought up by one of the flight tower operators, he stated that while it’s good to plan for more traffic at the airport, there will never be enough flight tower operations to control all the projected traffic. I don’t believe you can have flight schools, corporate traffic, and the National Guard all together in such a small airport and I’m sure the National Guard and FAA will address that situation. There were many interesting FACTS at the meeting and I thank the people who make genuine FACTUAL statements on this issue, as we don’t have time to reply to the others, for they are not FACTUAL and frivolous. I believe all that make statements about these issues should attend the meetings or at least listen to the recorded version to get the full story on the issue; otherwise, you make statements that are not FACTUAL and therefore miss leading. Another FACTUAL statement made by the board directors was, “ALL traffic needs to come to a complete stop before taking off again, this is found in the airports rules and regulations.” This is something that was not happening. There are many other FACTUAL statements if you listen to the recorded meeting. I have nothing against the airport and I know the students need training and that’s where we get our pilots, but it needs to be controlled as it has been controlled at other airports. I look forward to the National Guard making it their home and yes I know that will create noise also but at least it won’t be the annoying sound of a Cessna 172 straining to gain altitude over our community at the rate of one per minute. I actually like the sound of jet turbines and the blades of helicopters striking the vortices, they are completely different sounds and I’m sure it won’t be as constant as the flight schools. Control is all the residents and the airport board members are asking for.
Randy at the Tower says
Mr Siciliani,
I’m going to correct you a bit about the statement made by that controller…as I am that controller.
The statement was with all of this expansion, there has to be an upgrade to the ATC capabilities. We operate as one of the busiest FCT facilities in the country with no radar or wider communication equipment. Before we expand beyond our ability to keep the traffic safe, our needs must be seen to.
The point I made that I think you are referring to is that until we get the equipment we need for this level of traffic, most controllers dont want to come to Flagler…we are simply too busy and have been from the beginning.
The meeting was quite interesting for sure and I am sorry I couldn’t stay to the end as I had to get back to the tower. I just hope that all the residents (of which I am one…I live in the Zs) understand that ATC isnt blind to your plight and we are doing what we can. Even though we face fairly regular insults and accusations.
It also needs to be understood that Flight schools have been here for a very long time. Decades. This type of aviation is the heart of it all. Unless this facility becomes a corporate hub where the dominant traffic is air taxis/air carriers (which will require much longer runways and expanded equipment such as ILS), flight schools and general aviation is the bread and butter.
Cheers!
Jay Siciliani says
Understood, and from what I understand also is that the radar is nowhere in the near future so I hope they don’t put the cart before the horse again as there are safety issues at this moment because you the traffic controllers are so overworked as you stated. I appreciate you trying to control this traffic, but without the management establishing stick noise abatement procedures it’s almost impossible for you to control. Management needs to establish the rules like other airports have done, that is why all the flight schools are here, because the airport has no noise abatement procedures. And I still don’t see how they plan on having the flight schools, corporate traffic, and the National Guard all together at an airport that can’t expand much more because of land restrictions. I would really like your input on this question and I ask you because you have the experience to explain the question properly. Thank you for your time, Salute!
Gina Weiss says
No radar? Well I guess they can make a right at Winn Dixie, then a left at the RACE gas station and another left over Olive Garden and hope that they land safely at their new corporate building.
Just me says
What does the National Guard have to do with any of your complaints about aircraft flying over a home YOU moved into next to a Airport? The Guard has been on the Airport grounds for some years now. As far as I know about flying they do not and can not FLY their TRUCKS over your home.
Gina weiss says
Just me says: Where was the National Guard mentioned?
Gina Weiss says
Dave and Pill: There has been a number of municipal airports which were shut down across the country for mismanagement and noise nuisance problems , yourself and Bill shouldn’t be so cavalier and sure of yourselves about these problems and have some consideration for this community, AND there are also communities all across the country that are in close proximity to airports like this one that coexist with their neighbors because they have good strict noise abatement procedures in place, in other words they “RESPECT” their community and neighbors other than you guys who want to walk all over us! By the way , houses are still being built by developers in our section therefore according to you they should stop. Also we must decide what we want to be, how in the world are you guys going to fit in corporate tenants, flight schools, helicopters, the navy, other business, you are a small airport and “we the people” have the right to also decide what is best for us, you will only make things worst for yourself’s by trying to shut us down.
Gina Weiss says
Dave: Stop with your frivolous misinterpretation of what Mr. Cameron said at this meeting, for you are doing him a disservice. We find Mr. Cameron positive and at least he is doing something for our community and not ignoring us. What Mr. Cameron said is that he cannot ” guarantee” the results that we want. You know Dave, a little can go a long way.
Gina Weiss says
Palmcoaster: let’s call it what it what it is “LACK OF TRANSPARENCY” to “WE THE PEOPLE” citizens of the county! Corruption to the core along with the BOCC who invited even more flight schools ,shame on all of them, you tell me how are we benefiting from noise pollution, air pollution, wildlife pollution, they all are taking advantage of a once beautiful pristine community while lining their pockets, its all about the “MONEY”.
Danm50 says
Its Roy’s Airport , let him do what he wants.
Seanpeckham says
Sieger is one of a hand full in the county who is not corrupt . Let the man do his job he has more intelligence than all of the County commission put together . The only reason the airport is growing is because of Sieger and his staff everybody else needs to look in the mirror and fix the rest of the county. There’s a saying when you work at the county it’s only a matter of time until the bully’s come and pick a fight with you!
Gina Weiss says
Palmcoaster: Which is exactly what we will do. If Roy and the BOCC are not going to come up with strict noise abatement solutions as with other airports across this country has for their communities we will file for a class action law suit. We have a number of residents who have taken ill from the stress and noise of the overflights from these flight schools. Just look at the cocky comments from Roy’s wooden soldiers who still continue to taunt and mock this community, which is the climate at this airport among a bunch of those rotten apples, they would all be better off by trying to appease instead of upsetting people even further. We are here. we are staying not “LEAVING” our homes and “We The People” will fight for our rights against these corporate bigwigs.
palmcoaster says
I totally agree with you Gina Weiss and just take the mass of our affected residents to continue demanding solutions from FCBOCC, the regional and administration of the FAA, The Federal Transportation Committee Chair in Washington DC. Those Volusia county residents did it before you and this is maybe, why the flight schools moved to Flagler County.
https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2013/8/1/flight_school_at_ormhttps://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy-briefs/regional-affairs-brief-new-smyrna-beach-municipal-airport
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=c894b39b-d9ae-4826-8d33-007a208e3694
https://www.palmcoastobserver.com/article/full-time-flight-school-comes-to-flagler-executive-airport-invests-dollar500-000
Jay Siciliani says
Thank you Palmcoaster and Gina Weiss. The letter has already been sent to FAA letting them know of the management problems and I will send one to the FTCC in Washington. If nothing substantial is done by the airport management or the FCBOCC, then we move forward with the class action suit for emotional distress. Time is running out for the airport and the FCBOCC to take action and control these flight schools, if they don’t, we will. I started communicating with the airport over two years ago, called, attended the airport advisory meetings, and the FCBOCC meetings. It shows that we have tried to work with everyone on this issue, it shows we have been patient and I’m sure the legal system will see it that way, especially with all the documentation, videos, pictures, and proof shows that we have been ignored. Keep them coming and I will keep collecting evidence. I’m tired of being woke up every morning before 8:00 A.M., I’m tired of not being able to have a conversation in my own home and not being able to hear the television, I’m tired of not being able to have friends and family over for a cookout because of planes flying directly over our home at one per minute with decibel readings reaching 92 DBL, deer scattering and birds being flush from their nest. Human and environmental consequences from the leaded avgas with the planes just above the treetops. Do I have proof, you bet I do. Planes so low that I recorded their N #s and identified them through the FAA flight registry. It would have been so much easier for cooperation but no, you had to push. Well now we are going to push back and I can guarantee your not going to like the legal ramifications.
Old Guy says
To the best of my knowledge there have not been any flight schools forced to move to Flagler county. One of the schools at the Flagler Executive Airport (FIN) is a satellite of a large school that has been operating at the Daytona Beach International Airport (DAB) in excess of 20 years. There is another large school at the Ormond Beach Municipal Airport (OMN) for many years as well. Training flights originating from FIN are just a part of the total operations each day. There are numerous training flights each day from OMN and DAB. As a former active private pilot I understand how flight training is conducted. For example, when I hear the engine power changes that are part of aerodynamic stall training above my home in the F section I am not concerned. Maybe there are some operational changes that could be made and maybe the airport interests could put some effort into educating the community about their businesses.
Gina Weiss says
Old Guy: What a breath of fresh air. We as a community appreciate any and all input from knowledgeable people like yourself, instead of being called “village idiots”, it takes a village of decent, concerned, good people like yourself to bring its neighbors together. “We The People” are here to expose to the citizens of this county exactly what goes on and what deals are made behind closed doors, so that we can all enjoy a good quality of life.