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Flagler Tea Party Frets As Numbers Dwindle And Excitement Appears Elusive

| February 16, 2012

Where were they? Flagler's tea party group once drew 300 people a meeting. Not Thursday. (FlaglerLive)

The Flagler County Tea Party Group is worried–even “scared,” in the word of one of its members: the tea party is losing steam. It’s lacking excitement. It’s losing the interest of its former firebrands. It’s looking at too many empty seats.

And there were quite a few of those at the tea party’s monthly meeting this evening, held, as usual, at Flagler Palm Coast High School’s Bulldog Café. Meetings once drew upwards of 300 people. Thursday’s meeting (the first held on a Thursday, as opposed to Tuesday, so it didn’t conflict with government meetings) drew fewer than 100 people (actually, 85, not counting a reporter). The turn-out was low despite an agenda designed to plan the critical months between now and the election in November, culminating in what party chairman Tom Lawrence described, with hope, as “a victory party” in December.

One after the other, members of the party stood up to lament the absence of excitement in their presidential choices (“we don’t have a candidate,” one member said), and the absence of urgency in an election year that has none of 2010’s tea party surge. “We here have to get excited, we have to  step forward and say yes, I’m going to fight for my constitution,” one member said, citing the email all members had received, urging them to bring a friend. Not many friends had showed up, he said.

“The apathy here is very, very bad, in my opinion,” yet another member said, going as far as saying that the more the economy improves, the less interest there may be to bring out interest in tea party concerns, because matters are not hitting voters’ pocket books as much. “I think the apathy we have right now is because we don’t have a candidate running for president,” one more member said. “Once we get a leader, I think you’re going to see an outpouring of support.” The hoped-for name on most lips: Rick Santorum.

Numbers are crucial to the tea party movement: if tea party meetings and rallies don’t draw large numbers, the tea party’s influence wanes on election day, and politicians, from federal to state to local elections, pay less attention. The next few months will tell whether the local tea party has hit a lull—as has its equivalents across the state and the nation—or whether it’s now past its prime. On march 26, the local tea party will hold a rally on “Obamacare” in Palm Coast, in conjunction with similar rallies across the nation. On April 16, it’ll hold its annual Tax Day rally. On July 19, it’ll host its meet-and-greet for political candidates. The local tea party’s meet-the-candidate evenings have tended to be the best attended, barring some debates.

Meanwhile, the group has to pay attention to its finances: it has $1,400 left in its treasury, but Lawrence is pushing for putting up another get-out-the-vote billboard on I-95, one similar to the billboard the group put up in 2010. That cost $4,100 for three months. It also costs the group about $750 a year in insurance and rental fees (for the monthly gatherings at Bull Dog Café). The group is looking for money. Lawrence urged his members to contribute.

He then introduced Casey Ginsburg, an emissary from the conservative group called American Majority, to make a pitch that could net about $600. American Majority joined Nascar Nation to conduct mass registrations. It does so with “volunteers.” The word is in quote marks because the volunteers are, in effect, paid, if at a remove: Case proposed to the local tea party that if it could rustle up 25 such “volunteers” who’d be willing to spend at least four hours registering people going to the races in Daytona Beach over the next week or so, each volunteer could net the tea party group $25, for a total of $625. Ginsburg described American Majority as a non-partisan organization, though it is, of course, nothing of the sort, even by her own words: “If we can increase turnout in Florida 10 percent, what does that mean? We win the election.” She explained the values behind the “we”: “We are so conservative we don’t even take corporate funds. We are funded by successful businessmen,” she said, though in reality the group is one of the tea party’s more visible and powerful organizations. Several people signed up for the volunteering drive.

Officially, the local tea party group is sticking by its stated policy of not endorsing. But public sentiment voiced at the meeting made clear, as it has in the past, to what extent the policy is at odds with practice: there is no question that the group is looking for candidates to back—and that it is in search of those candidates, if only to revive the excitement that fueled it two years ago. Still, Lawrence batted down suggestions that the local group start backing individual politicians more overtly. “If we start picking local candidates, we’re just going to get mad at each other,” he said.

Tea party meetings preserve the feel of town hall meetings where discussion can be free-wheeling, and far less rigidly controlled than at more formal party meetings. At various points, discussions veered in various directions, such as when Ted St. Pierre got up to speak about his recent appearance before the Flagler County School Board to complain about images of the Statue of Liberty and the American flag, drawn by students at FPC, he and other veterans found offensive. That launched others into questioning the state of education, of history and the teaching of the Constitution being out the window.”

St. Pierre had other complaints about the school board, prompting Lawrence to ask him if he’d volunteer to be the group’s monitor of the school board. The previous monitor was Bill McGuire, now a council member in Palm Coast. St. Pierre accepted, as long as the assignment did not interfere with his other one, he said: he chairs Rick Santorum’s local committee.

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59 Responses for “Flagler Tea Party Frets As Numbers Dwindle And Excitement Appears Elusive”

  1. …in the “not really at all” sense…

  2. Angela Smith via Facebook says:

    I thought about attending, then I remembered I have to paint the cat.

  3. Sandra Reynolds via Facebook says:

    Shouldn’t they be happy the economy is improving?

    • The Truth says:

      They aren’t because they don’t truly believe the economy is getting better. They are so brainwashed by the GOP that they will fight tooth and nail until Obama is voted out. Unfortunately for them, the dopes they have running for nomination have no shot at all.

      • Layla says:

        @The Truth: Do we have jobs, have the foreclosures stopped? Do you realize this group is bipartisan?

        I think the County Dog Catcher could probably beat Obama this time. ABO!

      • peggy says:

        @The Truth-The traitor in the white house has allowed black panthers to intimidate white people at the polls. eric holder orchestrated “fast & furious”. the economy is not better, people are falling off the unemployment rolls. y not check the welfare roll numbers to see if they have not risen in conjunction w/our “better economy”. if there r more “JOBS” they r govt jobs, because the government is bigger and more intrusive than ever. i am not brainwashed, u sir/madam have drunk the cool-aid, not i. obama is shredding our constitution, has agents in our schools seizing children’s lunches. The man is not even eligible to be in office. as far as the truth, “Truth”, u probably r employed by our fine socialist government, which knows no TRUTH.

    • Layla says:

      The economy isn’t improving. Do you see jobs? Lawrence changed the night the group meets and that is why his turnout is so low.

      That is all. He’s got over 1200 registered members.

  4. Kendall Clark-StJacques via Facebook says:

    Anybody want to have a counter demonstration on March 26?

  5. The American says:

    The Flagler Tea Party has to get rid of Lawrence. He has his agenda’s and one of them is the Chamber of Commerce. The Tea Party stands for the Constitution. The Tea Party stands for small government. The Tea Party stands for the federal government to get out of our business. The Tea Party should be a united group guided by strong values of which this Tea Party lacks.

    • Layla says:

      Very true and another good reason why turnout is low. Lawrence and Martone are both involved with local candidates and word has gotten out. He has his own political agenda and that too has gotten out.

      Time for new leadership.

      The American’s assessment of this Tea Party is correct.

      If you check the numbers of nearby Tea Parties, their numbers are not dwindling, they are growing.

    • We the people are waking up says:

      Maybe because of Commissioner Milissa Holland and her involvement in Agenda 21. We the people are fed up!!!!!!!

  6. Maureen Vidal via Facebook says:

    A headline and a picture like that makes me a happy camper.

  7. The Truth says:

    The tea party was a joke from the beginning. They had no idea what their agenda really was other than trying to prove President Obama was not born in the USA… we all know how that ended.

  8. Yellowstone says:

    No, I think the TParty has now come to the realization that what they profess is not in their best interests.

    You can’t have someone representing the TParty shouting about ‘black people’ (which RS now says he was misquoted),

    And you can’t promote a society that has little regard for those that need things, like: unemployment insurance because some CEO decided to sell his job overseas- or medical for his family.

    You can’t be serious and suggest you want your Federal pension cut, and you prefer no Social Security, or Medicare.

    Good luck to you if you think these ideas will float the GOP.

    • Layla says:

      Cutting spending not in our best interests? Nobody in the Tea Party is suggesting cutting social security or medicare.

      How about the salaries and benefits of our elected officials in Washington? How about a prez and congress who must abide by the constitution? How about cutting some of that foreign aid and grant money?

      Wonder how many fools don’t understand that WE PAY for all this? so the bigger government gets, the more WE OWE. It doesn’t matter who is in the White House. That is why Americans are angry and we are NOT staying home.

  9. rickg says:

    The Baggers are running out of steam because the Melon-Scaifes and the Koch Bros can see the light. They have no viable candidate, circus clowns maybe but no candidate.

  10. Layla says:

    If you ask anyone who has ever belonged to a Tea Party somewhere else what they think of this one, they will tell you that this is no Tea Party here.

    Don’t know if that makes any sense. They go through the motions, but have very little organization and very few activities. This group is tightly controlled by a handful of people who make all the decisions for the group.

    It could definitely use new leadership.

  11. palmcoaster says:

    @American well said. Is always the Chamber popping up every where around the political arena when they should be only taking care of all their business members that instead seriously neglect.
    Great idea the counter demonstration, lets go for a big rally and show them!

  12. Mike says:

    Pretty soon they will be able to hold their meetings in a toilet bowl.

    Don’t forget to flush!

  13. vincent liguori says:

    It is truly sad to see the many democrats(Obama, Pelosi and Reid lovers) who want to see the demise of America and our constitution.

    • Deb says:

      And that’s why you will lose, you drop those bombs, and offer no insight to why that is or isn’t the case. If Its just that you don’t like the democrats, then say that, but just dropping provocative statements like that without explaining what you mean is just lazy. Thats my opinion of teabaggers, lazy, whiny, not very bright folks. You have a serious PR problem.

  14. Doug Chozianin says:

    Just a little reminder…

    Obamacare = Death panels and higher medical costs for all (except the Obama Poor).

    High Gas Prices = Poorer Americans if you drive, Higher food prices (Trucks use Diesel) if you do or don’t. (Don’t forget higher fertilizer costs.)

    Bigger Government = Higher Taxes and more regulations (fat people beware… and if you’re not fat, goodby soda, burgers, fries, pizza and ice cream. Hello arugula…) Also, no more Rush, only FlaglerLive 24/7/365.

    Inflation = Poorer standard of living especially at retirement. Have you bought a steak lately?

    Bankrupt Social Security = No payroll taxes. Seniors, Obama wants to bankrupt you (Don’t worry, Obamacare will provide free “final” doses of pain medication.).

    Golf Carts = A.K.A Chevy Volts at $40,000 a pop. BOOM!!!!

    Brave New World = Obama re-election. (Read / re-read the book!!!)

    1984 anyone?

  15. elaygee says:

    99% of the attendess at the Tea bagger rmeeting are on “gubbermint” welfare. They get government paid for healthcare and government paid for social security. After age 77, you’ve already gotten back every dime plus interest paid into the social security system and you’re living off the backs of current workers. They all need psycho meds for their delusions.

    • Nomad Child of the Lost Generation says:

      @ elaygee, I absolutely agree with you!

      Paul Begala wrote:

      “I hate the Baby Boomers. They’re the most self-centered, self-seeking, self-interested, self-absorbed, self-indulgent, self-aggrandizing generation in American history. As they enter late middle age, the Boomers still can’t grow up. Guys who once dropped acid are now downing Viagra; women who once eschewed lipstick are now getting liposuction.”

      • Layla says:

        Nomad: Doesn’t sound like Begala to me.

        Nanci Whitley: It’s all true. Gas prices will soon be at $5 per gallon. That’s over 100% higher than they were when this President came into office.

        People will be forced to pay premiums for Obamacare whether they can afford it or not. Let’s say you need life saving surgery but they cannot schedule it until the following year. Will you survive? Possibly not.

        It is ALL true.

        Deb, do you have any idea what this President’s policies are or are you just stricking back at those who do? If you do not know what they are, then it is you who has the problem and it is serious.

        You must do what those in the Tea Party are doing, you must read, study, learn. Remember, the Tea Party is bipartisan. It has both Republicans and Democrats as members.

        Nancy N: Hope you can afford the premiums. This is not going to be free healthcare. Most don’t know that.

        Palmcoaster! Have you been reading the Huffington Post again? Gaby Giffords was not shot by someone with the Tea Party.

        Where is all this hate coming from?

        There have been many articles on the problems with the Canadian healthcare system, the most common of which is the waiting time for an operation.

        Palmcoaster, Universal healthcare in Canada is going broke, which is why they are allowing free choice again. In Cuba, the government has had to do the same. It is unsustainable. And I suggest that you check the number of Canadians who are coming here. Many are coming because they cannot afford to wait the year or two for that life saving operation in Canada. Your facts are usually much better than this.

        The Truth: It ended with the Republicans taking back the US House of Representatives in 2010.

  16. palmcoaster says:

    @ Lyla and Peggy, unemployment, foreclosures and the alleged division of classes were all the work of your conservatives agenda. Do not blame this president for that. Too bad that your dark encasement prevents you to see the reality. When comes to Obamacare, is what has to be done, otherwise go and ask some of the Canadian tourist or friends if you have any like I do, how well their universal health care system that they copy from their mother land Britain, is working for them. Furthermore Americans were crossing to Canada seeking their medical treatment for free, until they were stop lately but we still buy billions of the reasonably priced pharma products. Why? because they have government price controls on meds. as are considered an article of primary need for their Canadian population! Good example to take and lets adopt this universal health care for all, whether Obama’s or Canada’s and stop politicking this shameful national tragedy of over 40 million children, women and men without preventive and treatment for lack of health and dental care coverage. Thank God that yet this conservatives have not done away with our medicare for the elderly. You show such a lack of compassion for you fellow middle and lower class countryman. Maybe you will stop bashing Obamacare after you read some real facts:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_health_care_systems_in_Canada_and_the_United_States
    http://www.canadian-healthcare.org/index.html

    • peggy says:

      @palmcoaster socialism will not solve any of our problems, only make things worse. socialism works until you run out of other people’s money. obama is taking us down the road of socialism. get some unbiased coverage, find out about agenda 21 and smart meters. if you have children and/or grandhildren this country will have no future for them. we can fix this stuff. i will not address the socialized medicine you mention, there is not enough room here. do not listen to your friends only, do some homework. most brits and canadians hate it.

    • Layla says:

      Palmcoaster, Bush is a progressive not a conservative. Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are not conservatives, either and they caused this crisis.

      That is reality.

      Deb: Really, lazy? These folks who had JOBS, CAREERS and businesses are lazy?

      Do you know what a teabagger is, Deb?

      jespo: I’m bitter because I am telling you the truth? Not bitter, Jespo. Just determined not to be silent anymore.

      Why don’t you tell us what the definition of Tea Bagger is?

      Nanci: Nanci, I’m not intelligent because I asked you why you went? I was interested. Do you see me attacking you?

      I have lost the freedom to have a responsible government. This one is trillions in debt. In just two years we will resemble Greece. I have lost half my life savings and the value of my home. I have lost my job. The have lost the right to free speech without being insulted and called names, something I did not do to you. I have lost the freedom to live in a safe and soverign nation. This one has open borders and is being overrun with citizens who have come here illegally. Our own government would prefer to sue the states than to enforce our laws. I have lost the freedom of having a government that took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, an oath which they freely violate. I have lost the freedom of taxation without representation. I have lost the freedom to freely shop for my own healthcare or to make the decision that I do not want healthcare. I have lost the freedom to pray and practice my religion whenever and whereever I wish. I have lost the freedom to protect my property from search and seizure by the federal government. I have lost the freedom from having the federal government seize me and arrest me anywhere in the world for the APPEARANCE of being threatening to the government. I have lost the right to be represented by counsel to determine my guilt or innocence under these charges and I may be held indefinitely according to the wishes of THIS PRESIDENT OF THESE UNITED STATES. I can go on, but I don’t think you are interested in hearing it.

      Deb, there are Democrats in this local Tea Party. It is a bipartisan organization.

    • Layla says:

      Palmcoaster, are you aware that Fannie and Freddie execs are on trial now and that you and I are paying all their legal fees? I am not blaming this President for that, though he has done little to correct any of it. The “everybody must buy a home whether they can afford to pay for it or not” was not the idea of the conservatives.

      Why should I have to pay for everybody’s healthcare? I worked damned hard all my life to pay for mine. And over 40 years worth of Democrat domination in Congress did little to fix any of it.

      We have federal and state programs in this country to help families with their medical costs. What next? Everybody gets free dental, free manicures, free haircuts, free meals?

      Sorry, but you and I most definitely do not agree on this one. Because our politicians have not done their jobs properly, I am heartless? I THINK NOT.

  17. Nanci Whitley says:

    I went to a meeting in 2010….they were the most unfriendly group, who would go back? I was wondering what all these retired folks, who have their pensions, IRA’s, Social Security, payed for homes, are so damn mad about. One man even said “we would have shot him by now, but we don’t want to make a martyr out of him”. It was really awful.

    • Layla says:

      They are losing their freedom, Nanci. If you didn’t feel the same, what were you doing there?

      • Nanci Whitley says:

        Layla, #1. I was there to see what they were so pissed off about. #2. I was there because their meetings are held at a public school and I’m against that. #3. I was there because they are supposed to be non- partisan and I wanted to see if that was true – it’s certainly not.

        You name me ONE freedom that you have lost!!!

        Layla, you’ve just proved that no one can have an intelligent conversation with you.

    • Layla says:

      Nanci, you did not hear that from anyone in the Tea Party leadership.

      I have heard much worse about Bush and Cheney. Why did you go?

      Has the population of this country not been educated enough to realize these pensioners you seem to hate so much have worked hard for over 30 years to EARN AND SAVE out of their own salaries for these “benefits?” The government has been taking this money out of our paychecks and using it.

      These people HAVE EACH EARNED THIS MONEY. Such jealousy and class warfare! Why don’t you get out of Florida and move up north where you can make a decent living?

      Palmcoaster: What conservative agenda? Bush is not a conservative, he is a progressive. Do you think we’re going to solve all this with attacks and personal bashing? Shallow lack of compassion? That’s disgusting and insulting, Palmcoaster.

      The goals of the Tea Party are simply this:

      Stop the Spending, both sides. Fiscal responsibility and smaller government. Adhere to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Strong national defense.

      What is so terrible and cruel about this? Too many are believing the hype from BOTH SIDES. How about we start listening to one another again, respecting one another again?

      The Tea Parties wouldn’t exist if our government, BOTH SIDES, were doing their jobs. Stop the attacks, please.

  18. palmcoaster says:

    @Nancy does not surprise me your account of these extreme conservatives words on these Tea Party meetings. They are aggressive (ask Gaby Giffords and 9 more innocent) such a bigots, against our first black President, against women rights to control their very private parts, while they (example Dole), profited advertising Viagra, against our workers and their unions, against Latinos and for the rounding up of illegal’s for profit of their supported private prison system, against traditional public education, against our public employees and specially now against our postal workers, for privatization of our taxpayers sustained public services, education for profit, prisons for profit, homeland security for profit, 401k’s for Wall Street profit, against affordable higher education, against Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, for health and dental care only for the wealthy, for the outsourcing of our jobs for greedy profit, against our national automobile industry and degrading women, the poor and the elderly by trying to go back the clock to the 1960′s discriminative policies in our country.
    @ Peggy, all my Canadians friends love their universal health care system and actually feel sorry for us all, not having ours and further more they do not understand how come yet we have not achieved it. Can you document your Canadians reject of their health care system…or is just here say, as usual is all of the extreme conservatives rhetoric? Are you just one more of the pharma-medical insurance lobbyist, or just reside in another planet…?

  19. palmcoaster says:

    @Peggy. Even Australians and British that I’ve spoken with, are scratching their heads about why WE, (the human rights leaders, the liberators policing the world, the largest donors of foreign aid, the supreme compassionate with the world missery and fundraises to help) do not help our own first by providing health care to all at least.. I reply, because people like you, Peggy, lobby the ones at the commands for special interest and not the well being of its citizens first.

  20. Layla says:

    Unbelieveable. Such hate towards this country and its people. I have never seen anything like it. The class warfare is at a fever pitch, few realizing it is the administration and our own politicians stoking it so they may be reelected and remain in power.

    Looks to me like they are succeeding. We are just along to pay for it all. Not much hope for any of us on this present course.

  21. jespo says:

    A tea bag steeped in anger will make bitter tea.

    - old saying…well, not really, but apropos.

  22. Layla says:

    I recommend that everybody listen to the video below. It is a business owner trying to express his frustrations.

    This is an excellent video that EVERYONE should watch.

    bamashlamadama.com/YT-embed/are-you-kidding-me.html

  23. palmcoaster says:

    Sorry Layla but your link above, did not produce any video but instead a bunch of fraudulent baits, using words like “bamas” to get a person to buy into some illusionary grants and free money…?

  24. Hank Rearden says:

    If the original Tea Party and our country’s founders had the convictions and integrity of the Flagler Tea Party leadership, we would never have become the Consttutional Republic called USA but rather would still be British colonies. How can the leadership pretend to be for limited Consttutional Govenment while being fearful of offending the “Chamber” by endorsing candidates who advocate limited Constitutional government (at all levels). New leadership of the Flagler Tea Party is badly needed.

    Who is John Galt?

  25. Out of curiosity says:

    Hmmm…those volunteers registering people better making sure they comply with the new voting laws…

  26. Layla says:

    Somebody finally said it right….

    http://obamashlamadama.com/YT-embed/are-you-kidding-me.html

    He is speaking to the president and to the leadership in Congress. It’s pretty good. If it won’t open, cut and paste it exactly as it is.

  27. snapperhead says:

    I think most of them just attend just so they can see see what a high school looks like.

  28. Nanci Whitley says:

    Layla, the value of your home, your 401k, the loss of your job were ALL pre President Obama. He’s cleaning the mess up. It has and will take a long time. He said that when he was running for office and in his inauguration speech. You have NOT lost the right to free speech, nor can you take my right to free speech away. President Obama has put more boots on the ground at our borders than any other President. He is suing Az because their law takes away the rights of citizens because they are Hispanic. You have not lost the right to search for your health care, no more than you have lost the right to your car insurance because it is mandatory. The Affordable Health Care Act puts restrictions on insurance companies, not on you, except that you must have health care. Tax payers don’t want to pay for your trip to the emergency room. You have the same tax representation you’ve always had. Ditto search and seizure, ditto right to counsel. I have no idea where your getting your information – The Tea Party – perhaps. But you are inaccurate on everything you listed. Maybe you should be the one doing the studying.

    • Layla says:

      No, Nancy. Under the Indefinite Hold provision of the recently passed National Defense Authorization Act, you are not entitled to counsel. The President has the right to have you picked up and held INDEFINITELY.

      I am getting my information directly from Congress.

  29. Sherry Epley says:

    To those of you who think that citizens of Canada and the UK dislike their health care system- Have you ever spent any significant time in Canada, the UK or Europe? Do you have friends there who discuss the truth of health care in those places? I can tell you, first hand, that my experience in living in those countries and discussing health care, among other political topics, with many of my friends there reveals that 100% of them are extremely grateful for the excellent level of medical care readily available to “every” citizen.

    Not to confuse anyone with facts. . .Check Wikipedia- It’s common knowledge that the USA is the only wealthy industrialized nation that does not insure either public or private health care for every citizen. It’s also common knowledge that the USA lags behind other first world (European) countries in the quality of health care available. Wikipedia: The French health care system is one of universal health care largely financed by government national health insurance. In its 2000 assessment of world health care systems, the World Health Organization found that France provided the “best overall health care” in the world.[1] In 2005, France spent 11.2% of GDP on health care, or US$3,926 per capita, a figure much higher than the average spent by countries in Europe but less than in the US.

    We come in 36th when it comes to our life expectancy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

    From a personal point of view, I do not understand where the compassion for our fellow citizens/our fellow human beings figures in to this discussion. Conservative political perspectives intentionally breed fear . . . which is the emotion that is the root of all other negative actions and emotions, such as greed. The opposite of love is not hate, it is fear. My concern is that our fears are overcoming our higher angels and purposes on this earth. I see, from a much larger perspective, symptoms of the crumbling of our nurture, nature and civility.

    To those who look to only one source for your opinions, especially such outlets as FOX News and Rush Limbaugh, look deeply, trust your intellect and your inner voice, and you will realize that you are being vastly manipulated. ALL news sources, yes even CNN and MSNBC have their agendas and their propaganda. Take the time to do your own “fact checking”, because your news sources on TV, the radio and the internet are reporting only “their version” of the facts.

    Please consider the possibility that the idealistic members of the “Tea Party” haven’t really thought things through. Such as “government” being portrayed as evil or un-necessary. . . WE are the government. WE are city hall. The same short sightness caused the down fall of communism. Unfortunately, human beings are self centered by nature. BUT, we do not live completely alone and everything we do creates ripples that in some way effects others. People are not always going to do the “right thing” for ALL those involved. That’s why we absolutely need rules, regulations, laws and enforcement practice/process= government, both Federal and local. Government and the needs of the common defense and the common good costs money = taxes.

    Please also consider that the members of the “Tea Party” are perhaps more easily being manipulated and misled due to their short sighted passion and misplaced allegiances. In any case, let’s try to be kind and respectful to one another during these debates.

    • Layla says:

      Wealthy industrialized nation? You’d better check the change in our status since this President was sworn in. Also the price of gas, all fuels and yes, medical care.

      Can you tell me what those healthcare premiums are, Sherry? And did you know that anyone can edit Wikipedia?

      Let’s try to be kind and respectul? Am I not being respectful because I disagree with you?

      This is a better site for statistical data than Wikipedia:
      http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/income_wealth/cb11-157.html

      Tea partiers are more easily manipulated in short sighted passion and allegiances? I don’t think the members of the Tea Party voted for Obama. I know I didn’t.

    • Linda says:

      Excuse me, Sherry but did you say :

      “Please consider the possibility that the idealistic members of the “Tea Party” haven’t really thought things through. Such as “government” being portrayed as evil or un-necessary. . . WE are the government. WE are city hall. The same short sightness caused the down fall of communism.”

      What did you mean by caused the downfall of communism?

  30. palmcoaster says:

    @Sherry Epley. Very well said!

  31. palmcoaster says:

    @Layla could you document which are the government organizations that help our healthcare uninsured when they need treatment…because some of my unemployed friends have not found them and maybe you could help them here. Are your Canadian friends wealthy and pay up front the high cost of private practice here? just so you have an idea of the cost “10 years ago” of an open heart double bypass was 66,000 to a relative of mine and his insurance paid…Imagine that cost today? When just a biopsy tested , in Halifax Health is $1,100 just the tissue test ? My Canadian snow bird friends told me that they will have to pay a travel medical policy of $3,000 each for some coverage for the 2 months they spend here. So they do not take it, they come with their accident coverage policy only. They go back home if they get sick. I hope Layla that this statement of yours did not have the same origin as Angie’s, regarding candidate for Sheriff Manfre about not paying his house taxes! I want to preserve the degree of respect and confidence on you, presenting facts and not otherwise data. Sometimes we may err, but hopefully not intentionally, otherwise we will never help to resolve anything.
    The Indifinite Hold Provision had strings attached, but inspite of that, I agree with you and do not like it; http://themoderatevoice.com/132092/indefinite-detention-a-round-up/
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/with-reservations-obama-signs-act-to-allow-detention-of-citizens/

    • Layla says:

      Palmcoaster: Google state and federal healthcare services and programs for uninsured. There are hundreds of them listed. Many of my own family and friends are using them. Not every doctor accepts them, just as not every doctor accepts my Tricare. People feel they are entitled to see any doctor they wish, do not want to fill out the paperwork for these programs. Just wait until they get a load of what paperwork the government plan is going to require of them, which doctors they may use. Whom will they blame then? Premium costs will be required for everyone. How many realize this? Most blaming conservatives think it will be free.

      I had a Navy friend in the 80′s who had leukemia and the government would not pay for his bone marrow transplant. He had to go elsewhere to get it and It saved his life.

      Congress has known about these rising costs for decades. A lot of it has been caused by lawsuits. Has there been any leglislation to curb frivilous lawsuits? NO, but they have been talking about it for decades.

      Doctors don’t make the profits they did decades ago. All of it goes to insurance, equipment and operating expenses. Many will retire when the government plan goes into effect. I know this because I have been asking them. We will have a tremendous shortage of doctors, just like they did in Massachusetts. We will wait months, maybe years for treatment. Or it will be denied because we are too old and it is not cost effective. Why should they replace those knees, hips after 65? They are not necessary, most of your life is over.

      Hospitals are shutting down because they cannot meet with operating expenses without federal money. This is particularly true in the border states which also treat millions of illegals. How much longer will that federal money be there? Not long when only 49% of us are paying our taxes.

      I am not disagreeing with you about costs or the need for affordable healthcare. I AM disagreeing with you as to which political party caused it. They both have. Canada is having the same problems being able to pay for healthcare as well. Nationalizing it hasn’t brought the costs down. It has only eliminated the quality that existed because when money is short decisions must be made to terminate care or to put it off for months. I know this because I have been a military dependent for nearly 30 years and when the government could not afford my care, they did not pay for it. It was denied, simple as that. And when there are cuts, it is the FIRST program the government cuts. So I got a job that provided healthcare.

      You want to blame conservatives for all this and I am telling you that you make a very grave error not to place the blame on each President and every Congress for the past few decades. People believe this and vote for more of the same. Or they stay home, thinking they can do nothing. They refuse to hold politicians accountable, believing political rhetoric that it is the “other guy’s fault.”

      This problem is not new. It is what happens when you don’t have an informed electorate, an educated electorate. What we have now is an electorate who believe they are entitled. You are witnessessing the end of the Republic. And I somehow doubt that you are going to enjoy the socialist form of government that is going to take its place. Big surprises in store for all of us if we don’t vote these people out and learn to live within our means. Money cannot be generated out of thin air and they are spending much too much of it, making promises to the voters they cannot keep and people believe them. A second term of this president will not be better than the first. I don’t know what the answer is, but I know that he does not have it.

      Manfre’s taxes? I don’t know anything about Manfre’s record, let alone his taxes. If a comment was made re his policies or his taxes, it was not me.

      What makes an Indenfinite Hold provision any different than rounding people up for the prison camps during the war?

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