When Palm Coast City Council member Theresa Pontieri said she was “adamantly against” any suggestion to sell the city-owned Palm Harbor Golf Course in the heart of the C-Section, the audience burst in a round of applause. She was responding to a city presentation to the council today prompted by Council member Charles Gambaro’s assertion that the city cannot keep losing money on the course, and that selling the property should be at least an option to explore.
He was not applauded. But the discussion he prompted at a workshop today on what he and a majority of his colleagues on the council consider unsustainable losses at Palm Harbor Golf Club soon broadened to a discussion on the purpose of government and whether any city amenity should be losing money, whether it’s the golf course or the Southern Recreation Center or, presumably, other parks and the community centers: the city operations under the gun were not precisely defined, nor was the ultimate objective of today’s discussion. So its outcome is fuzzy.
The audience’s reaction to Pontieri was not a surprise. The 145-acre golf course has been a torrential money loser since it was donated to the city in 2008. But as Palm Coast landmarks that define the city and have the attachments of thousands of residents, it has few equals. Residents in the nearly 1,000 homes that surround the course’s snaky greens are also petrified that the course would either stop being a golf course, that its grounds would become unkempt and overgrown–as had the grounds of the old Matanzas Woods golf course when it stopped being a course in 2008, until it was turned over to a developer–or that it would be built up in turn, like so much of the city.
Mayor Mike Norris attempted to pre-empt discussions of development on the grounds when he asked City Attorney Marcus Duffy to summarize the legal status of the land. The property is part of a planned unit development, Duffy said. It is controlled by a deed that requires the land to be used either as a golf course or as a park or a recreational facility. While the city may sell the golf course, the same deed would apply to the buyer.
The assertion is at odds with a plan the city and Atlanta-based developer Jim Jacoby (who owns and has developed properties in Flagler County, and owns valuable land in Marineland) devised in 2019 to build 120 apartments in five three-story buildings in what is today part of the Palm Harbor Golf Club grounds. That plan was predicated on the developer ceding driving range ownership then owned by Centex Homes to the city. Then-City Manager Matt Morton said the plan was to the city’s benefit because the previously adopted master-planned development for the grounds had entitled the developer to 16 apartment buildings and nine more buildings on driving ranges. (See: “2 Big Developments Would Change Complexion of Palm Harbor Neighborhood.”
Residents swiftly rebelled. The plan was just as swiftly killed. The golf course stayed open.
“This is an area where we’re losing money, not just in fees. We have to reinvest some additional funding in it to continue this golf course to operate under the city,” Gambaro said. If it were privately owned, he said, it would generate property tax revenue. “We often talk about diversifying the tax base. We’ve got an immediate opportunity here to do that without having to court some company to come in from an economic development perspective.”
But it would not generate much. For comparison’s sake, the 170-acre Pine Lakes Golf Club off Pine Lakes Parkway in Palm Coast paid $21,750 in total property taxes last year, $5,000 of it to Palm Coast. Currently the Flagler County Property Appraiser gives the Palm Harbor course a lower just market value than that of the Pine Lakes course ($1.19 million compared with $848,000).
“I’m adamantly against that course of action. I am seeing right now coming through the pipeline requests to change fairways out at the Matanzas golf course for Lakeview Estates, to change fairways to residential, and that’s my fear.” In 2021, the Palm Coast City Council cleared the way for a residential development of more than 200 homes on what had been the Matanzas golf course in the L-Section.
Selling the property would be a first step to a similar fate for Palm Harbor, Pontieri said. While the finances of the golf course have to be brought under control, “this is an amenity,” Pontieri said. “We lose money on a lot of amenities–not something we should really brag about. But when you have amenities like this in the city there are a lot of things that we offer to the community that we lose money on.”
“The difference here is that golf is something that we have multiple other private entities providing that same service,” Council member Ty Miller said, “whereas some of the other things that the city offers are things that only the city can offer. So there’s a little bit of a difference there.” He is not opposed to selling the course, as long as the sale is conditioned on assurances that it would not be used for anything but golf.
Pontieri wanted facts that would enable a deeper analysis of next steps. But there were only so many new facts the city could present: it has been facing the same challenge at Palm Harbor since 2008, whether it was running the operation or whether a management firm was. The council agreed last year to higher fees, but the numbers aren’t all in regarding that windfall. The city has examined contracting some of the golf course’s operations while bringing others in house. The city has a management company for maintenance (which could be brough in-house, but at a higher cost), and has contracted the restaurant operation to Loopers.
Other ways of increasing revenue are limited. “We could pass on a credit card convenience fee to the customer, which could eliminate, eliminate about $50,000 to our budget,” James Hirst, the city’s parks and recreation director, said. Certain prices could be increased. To maintain the course, the city would have to spend money out of its capital improvement plan, further hurting the balance sheet.
Or the course could be sold, he said. The council would have to get the property appraised before selling it, but nothing stops it from selling. A majority of council embers would have to vote to sell it. If it were to continue as a private golf course, however, the city’s controls would be limited.
Pontieri’s view of the golf course as an amenity that loses money is in the minority. A majority of council members, including the mayor, want the course to at least break even, what they call “full cost recovery.” Norris is opposed to selling it. But based on anecdotal reports by golf players, he sees it as “overstaffed,” sees its prices as not competitive with other courses–but not put other courses out of business–and worries about players thieving rounds without paying (Hirst said staff keeps an eye on that) or thieving at the pro shop. He says all transactions should be cash-less. (None of those issues would amount to much of a difference in the bottom line, however.)
“There’s no reason why we’re having over 50,000 rounds of golf play there every year, and we’re bleeding money. That’s just ridiculous,” Norris said. “I think it goes a lot into the management.”
With one exception, none of the residents who spoke favored selling the golf course. One called it “a jewel of an amenity.” Most believe the course should not be losing money with as many rounds as it sells. “I am there all the time,” another resident said, recalling how local residents successfully prevented the city from building a cell tower there, to preserve the “jewel.” Several spoke of the value of a municipal golf course against private courses, which can be unaffordable. Some spoke of the course as a protection for their property value.
Doug Brown, the owner of Cypress Knoll Golf Course, who was attending the meeting with the owner of Pine Lakes Golf Club, said he’d offered the city to match up his profit and loss statement against those of the city, so the city could determine where it was losing. “I haven’t had a response to that at all,” he said. He did not outright say that the city should not be in the business of competing with private golf courses, but he spoke of the unfairness of the city “subsidizing” play for repeat users of the course–a contention a golf player at Palm Harbor said was inaccurate. The Pine Lakes owner said competing against the city for 10 years “has been an uphill battle.” While she advocates the sale of Palm Harbor, she said, the city bought the course to protect values.
Gambaro said he proposed a review of the golf course precisely to have the discussion that took place at today’s workshop of the City Council, and to consider options. But he went further: “What I would also like to see and post it on our website is the other amenities that we have,” he said. “The Southern Recreation Center, other places. How far in the red are we in those areas?” At that point Gambaro was putting in question the very purpose of local government and suggesting that amenities such as parks and community centers should not be losing money.
But that’s not reflective of the purpose of government-0-anymore than Belle Terre Parkway or Palm Coast Parkway, which cost millions to build and cost millions to maintain, do not and cannot make money. The arguable difference with a city-run golf club is that, as the resident who addressed the council today had noted, it is not a unique municipal service–it is not an essential municipal service, as regular parks and community centers and roads are.
“Let’s make all of it public,” Gambaro said, without specifying what “all” means. “I think if we’re going to take a look at all the numbers and see how we can better operate, if this is the consensus that this council decides to go with, let’s lay it all on the table, because if we’re bleeding millions of dollars over time, then we obviously need to do a better job in managing it.” He suggested creating a committee to study the matter. (The city had such an advisory committee. The council eliminated it on the recommendation of Lauren Johnston, now the acting manager.)
The most concrete direction the administration got today was merely to end cash transactions at the golf course, limiting them to credit cards or (presumably) cash apps, and to get profit and loss statements for an undefined list of other amenities, even though those numbers are posted routinely on the city’s financial transparency dashboard, on the web. The city will bring a cost and staffing analysis in a few months and attempt a full cost-recovery model, with a follow-up presentation in April.
“We’re operating on previous philosophies of previous city council, of what they want to invest in and what services they want to provide,” Acting City Manager Lauren Johnston said, “and then what cost recovery level that we’re asking to bring forth.”
But after a 70minute discussion, it was not clear how different today’s discussion was from the recurring discussions on the same topic that took place year after year, from around 2010 to 2017, when the golf course officially was redefined as an amenity, as opposed to a separate city fund.
justbob says
George Carlin on Golf
I’ve got just the place for low-cost housing. I have solved this problem. I know where we can build housing for the homeless: golf courses! It’s perfect! Just what we need. Plenty of good land, in nice neighborhoods, land that is currently being wasted on a meaningless, mindless activity engaged in primarily by white, well-to-do male businessmen who use the game to get together to make deals to carve this country up a little finer amongst themselves. I am getting tired, really getting tired, of these golfing cocksuckers in their green pants, and their yellow pants, and their orange pants, and their precious little hats and their cute little golf carts! It is time to reclaim the golf courses from the wealthy and turn them over to the homeless! Golfing is a arrogant, elitist game which takes up entirely too much room in this country. Too much room’ in this country! It is an arrogant game on its very design alone, just the design of the game speaks of arrogance. Think of how big a golf course is – the ball is that fucking big! What do these pin-headed pricks need with all that land?! There are over seventeen thousand golf courses in America, they average over one hundred and fifty acres a piece – that’s three million plus acres, four thousand, eight hundred and twenty square miles – you could build two Rhode Islands and a Delaware for the homeless on the land currently being wasted on this meaningless, mindless, arrogant, elitist, racist, there’s another thing; the only blacks you’ll find at country clubs are carrying trays. And a boring game. A boring game for boring people. You ever watch golf on television? It’s like watching flies fuck! And a mindless game, mindless. Think of the intellect it must take, to draw pleasure from this activity: hitting a ball with a crooked stick and then, walking after it! And then, hitting it again! I say pick it up asshole, you’re lucky you found the fucking thing! Put it in your pocket and go home, you’re a winner! You’ve found it! No chance of that happening. Dork-o in the plaid knickers is going to hit it again and walk some more. Let these rich cocksuckers play miniature golf! Let them fuck with a windmill for an hour and a half or so! See if there’s any real skill among these people. Now I know there are some people who play golf who don’t consider themselves rich. FUCK ‘EM! And shame on them for engaging in an arrogant, elitist passtime.
Bill Buzzi says
I noted that nowhere in the discussion did the Council or anyone else suggest benchmarking other City’s course ops to determine some best practices/ efficiencies. There are many small city’s with “munys”…why stare at your navel for a solution? Vision seems a bit limited…
JimboXYZ says
“Vision seems a bit limited…”
Yep, that Vision of 2050 was an overreach. Gonna cost between the new schools they want to build & the Sewage Treatment Facility $ 650 million. Grossly underfunded growth that nobody wanted/wants are legitimate expenditures ? This golf course is the same one that City of Palm Coast chased off the restaurant there for higher lease revenue. I recall it being the Green Lion ? How is the new restaurant doing there ?
Kendall says
Isn’t a government owned amenity that is expected to turn a profit considered socialism? All the MAGA folk here should not approve. Or to put it in their la fudge, “Me no like.”
Ed says
Put it back on the tax roll and derive some tax income
Mike says
Palm harbor is not an amenity. They are not the only course in town. Pine lakes, cypress and Halifax are in better shape than palm harbor. Over paid employees, slowest greens anywhere and a manager who knows nothing about golf. Sell it with the provisions that it has to remain a golf course. No more taxes to cover their payrolls.
Jackson says
I’m a fairly new golfer. I started in 2018 and played maybe 5 rounds from 2018-2020. During that time, I remember going to courses thinking how beautiful the grass was and how I couldn’t believe we were playing on them for $50.
Jump into post Covid, I now play about 5 times a month since 2020, and the same courses I always enjoyed are now double the price or more and half the quality. Every course I played on pre 2020 has yet to invest back into their course or equipment even with their insane surge in revenue.
I recently moved from the northeast to Florida and was hopeful that some of these Florida courses would be great. Looking at reviews I see the same thing. Over 3 years ago people used to rave about how amazing some of these courses were. Now, they can’t believe the horrible quality of the courses….Palm Harbor included!!!
One could argue that the increased play on these courses are part of the lowered quality but I’ve seen a good handful of courses that maintained great quality while dealing with the surge in popularity. The problem is that ~90% of courses don’t do this and the golfer/customer is the one who suffers.
I feel as a collective of golfers we need to do something to show courses we won’t stand for their lack of upkeep while raking in record profits. (Not the case with PH) Whether it be making sure we leave honest reviews of courses to even boycotting some courses, the message needs to be sent. Otherwise they will keep taking advantage of us and we will be left playing poor quality courses for $120 on a Sunday morning.
Feel free to offer up some ideas or tell me to F off, either way is fine by me.
Ray W, says
No, Kendall, yours is not the definition of socialism.
As Merriam-Webster defines socialism, “any of various egalitarian economic and political theories or movements advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.”
When the British government nationalized its entire automobile industry in the 1960s, that met the definition of socialism, because the government entirely controlled the means of automotive production and the distribution of automotive goods.
When a government owns only one of four golf courses, we call that capitalism. Each course stands on its own. Were the government to own all four of Flagler County’s golf courses and were it to prohibit the construction of competing private golf courses, we could accurately call that socialism.
Perhaps this offers a better perspective.
International Speedway Corporation does not own the land on which Daytona International Speedway sits. Originally, the military built an airstrip to train pilots. After the war, the land was deeded by the federal government to local government. Now, the land is jointly owned by the City of Daytona Beach and by Volusia County and is administered by an authority comprising five members. Two are appointed to four-year terms by the political leaders of the City of Daytona Beach. Two more are appointed by the political leaders of Volusia County. The fifth is appointed jointly by both councils.
The land on which the speedway sits is leased by the Authority to ISC, which pays, when I last checked, $500,000 per year. The Authority, under the terms of the lease dating back to the mid-50’s, runs both of the two annual car shows, both of which having established a long history of profitability.
The Authority’s mandate is to use its profits to support sporting and recreational activities throughout the city and county. In no way is this a form of socialism.
Yes, Kendall, I know that some people define right and wrong not by dictionaries, but by whether they like something or not. You say as much about yourself.
Intellectual rigor means nothing to certain people. For such people, the meaning of words and phrases can change like the wind. If they like it, it must be good. If they don’t like it, it must be bad.
Richard says
Sounds to me like there’s some sticky fingers around the cash register
whiplash says
Marple Township in PA owns Paxon Hallow Golf course! Each year, at least up until the time I moved in 2017, the course turned a profit of up to $500,000! That was a direct tax saving to Marples taxpayers!
Our city needs to look at other municipal owned courses that are profitable, both in and out of Florida.
JaceyJones says
Atlanta-Based builders – Centex – all subpar and built subpar. My ex worked for Centex in Atlanta and was always remarking about the throw-it-together-as-fast-as-possible homes they built. I’ve notice the disgusting lack of quality building being done here in Palm Coast and elsewhere around Volusia county and Flagler that our government has started allowing in order to let the builders make as much profit as they can at homeowners’ and local governments’ expenses. I’ve even talked to some of those new homeowners that say they would never buy another home from such builders again. Last night I ventured into a newly built 4 story apartment complex in Daytona – the elevator did not work at all, pieces of the building was falling off, there was NO discernable building numbers shown – and this place was less than 2 years old! Wake up Florida, and step up your planning and zoning to a hurricane-proof, quality standard (as you once did)!
Wasn’t this golf course once privately owned and lost money too? Keep it as is, since the last city council ran off the extremely popular restaurant that was there last year. Bad planning, bad regs, I’m glad that council is no more and we have a better one that listens to the citizens more.
Dennis says
I suggest two prices for golf, one for cash, another that adds the card fees. Many places already do that.
Robjr says
Let those who applauded play their golf at either Cypress Knoll or Pine Lakes, or they can make a short
drive to the Reserve in Bunnell. This government subsidy to a few should stop.
My city street can’t get paved. The city comes and patches the pot holes, then when the patches give way comes back and patches the patched pot hole. Yet the city has money for a renewed tennis center, a failed splash park and a money losing golf course.
The Royal Albatross says
Ok,
It’s pretty simple. The City shouldn’t be in the business.
There is nobody running the Golf course that has the business acumen to operate the facility.
Put it out to bid, accept a performance bond that can be collected should a failure happen. Companies that run golf courses for a living will out perform the City.
celia pugliese says
Then they should sell also Holland Park cost us 17.5 millions and we will learn how much a year and sell also the newly built for 13,7 millions Southern Recreation Sports Center that we will learn that cost us $600,00 a year to manage also. Waht about selling all the other courses and parks like Carter, Water Front, Linear and Creek preserve park over the cost of replacement and maintenance. These are pour city amenities and should remain as such along the gold f course. Complaining about these needed public amenities cost that are minimal in a city with over a 421 millions budget? Some need to start doing the work they promised in the campaign trail and not at selling our public used assets! What about properly resolving the flooded yards, pool or lanais given approval of high back fill in infill lots? Resolve the cost of our utilities rates incorrectly subsidizing gr. Slow down growth until our old decaying infrastructure can catch up. Reduce the size of overpaid unneeded government administrators and some staff and will save at least a million sufficient to fund our amenities including the swimming memberships in both pool , until proper financial audit is completed and waste is reduced. Elected officials need to get busy demanding P and L’s from administrators to correct and avoid waste! Is NOT MICROMANAGEMENT ! Is watching our hard earned taxes to be spent in what we need and not what the ones in power want. Example at least we have an administrator costing us about $200,000 or more a year in pay and benefits and he spent two years of our pay, in lobbying Wawa to come to Palm Coast Parkway? Is this the economic development we need and services we pay for? Its time Palm Coast elected put these administrators to work for us and not against as usual.!
Joseph Barand says
Rename it the Trump National of Flagler, add add a shooting range an a gift shop selling all of his Chinese garbage and the MAGA crowd will make it a success.
Just saying says
It’s hard to imagine Palm Harbor not turning a profit with the massive amount of play they get. Weekend tee times are all booked as well as league play on the weekdays.
celia says
FACT: THE PHGC HAS BEEN RUNNING IN THE BLACK THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN UNDER THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATORS LEADERSHIP ONE FORMER 20 YEAR TALLAHASSEE LOBBYIST FOR DEVELOPERS, IT GOES RED !
A BUDGET OF $1.7M WITH 26% BEING IN “OTHER CONTRACT SERVICES”, THEIR HEADING NOT OURS!
LET US DIG DEEPER AND REVIEW THIS FOR “CREATIVE ACCOUNTING”.
DO YOU FIND IT ODD THAT THE NEWLY APPOINTED FILL IN COUNCILMAN GAMBARO IS LEADING THE “PACK” WITH FORMER VICE MAYOR DANKO [THAT NEVER VOTED NO ON PACKING IN MORE HOMES] SEEM TO BE OPERATING IN CONCERT TO SELL THIS PUBLIC AMENITY THAT HAS BEEN IN THE BLACK ?
WHY NOT SELL THE SPLASH PARK, FREDA ZAMBA POOL OR THE SOUTHERN REC CENTER (600,000 management, etc. yearly cost as per Mayor) [MOSTLY FREQUENTED BY NON CITY RESIDENTS] THAT ARE ALWAYS IN THE RED !
OR BETTER STILL START RUNNING THE CITY WITH A COMPETENT STAFF AND ELIMINATE NEVER NEEDED BEFORE 2021, $275,000 AT LEAST FOR THE AST. CITY MANAGER AND chief OF STAFF THAT NEVER EXISTED TILL JUNE OF 2021. THESE POSITIONS WERE CREATED BY DANKO-ALFIN-KLUSFAS [ALL TERMINATED BY THE VOTERS] TO PROP UP A WEAK INSIDER PRO DEVELOPMENT FORMER CITY MANAGER!
WE HAVE ASKED FOR A BREAKDOWN OF THE “MYSTERY” SERVICES, THE $303,000 GOLF CART LEASE AND $97,000 FLEET ALLOCATION.
PROTECT PALM COAST.
PHGC FY 2024
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Jay Tomm says
Dump all the courses. Get people to stop moving here & destroying the area.
Skibum says
Local government is not a private business, nor do local governments have the same business models, goals and strategies as private businesses. We all pay taxes and have expectations for the kind of services and amenities we would like to have in our communities. The city already has a fee structure for those who use the city owned golf course to offset some of the expenses. People need to stop complaining about this city’s amenities.
Endless dark money says
We spend over a million every time the orange stain terrorist wants to play golf. And that’s not even counting paying to put people up in his properties. The reich won. Now bend over and take it from a convicted sex offender. Haha called it millions will suffer from the orange stain ! Get what you wanted yet?
Kevin says
How about just sell the property or just demolish it, either.. Put nice upscale condos or a nice walking trail with couple of benches for a breather, or a great idea make a very 1st palm coast Zoo or Aquarium great for kids n parents to learn n great for school trips or make it a fun park, stuff for kids to do to keep them out of trouble or a teen center, something to keep the kids/teens out of trouble & out of jail
Joe D says
For Ray W:
REALLY missed you on this blog while you were gone….the voice of FACTS!
Welcome BACK SIR!
Ed Danko, former Vice-Mayor, PC says
The city has no business undercutting our privately owned golf courses, just like they have no business competing unfairly against any other business in town. “Tax & Spend Theresa” is wrong in her delusional belief that Palm Harbor is an amenity, it is not, and our city can not continue to bleed millions of dollars just so a minority of citizens can play golf for a cheap price while the majority of taxpayers subsidize it. The city’s golf course needs to go out to bid to private enterprise who will be required by law to keep it a golf course and who will complete on a level playing field with our two other privately owned courses. Government has no business being in business!
Grassy Knoll says
We all benefit from public amenities, either directly or indirectly, such as quality of life, good property values, recreational opportunities. Palm Coast has wonderful amenities, isn’t that why we live here? Gotta laugh at the crowd saying to sell it to developers all the while complaining about over development. I brought my family, from out of town, to the course this past weekend, we had a wonderful time, we spent money at the course and restaurant, and in Palm Coast, not in another town. And shame on the guy driving the expensive SUV and wearing expensive clothes for sneaking onto the course on the back side of the parking lot by the rowing shells, we all watched you, its called theft.
celia pugliese says
TY Grassy K probably more of that is happening…and ad to ending yearly financials in the red. We didn’t elect our council to do away with our amenities specially with the only one that generates 1.7 millions a year in players fees!! We need to investigates the charges to it specially what are we paying for maybe 60 Golf carts…that cost us up to 438,000-over 300,000 a year and additional line charges in the financials. Lets see the purchase contracts and prices. TG that our councilwoman Pontieri leaded the charge with the “PHGC is not for sale”, backed by Mayor Norris and councilman Ray Stevens. Also TY to all the golfers that are home owners as well and the non golfers home owners affected that showed up in droves Tuesday 28 at 9 am and had to endure item 2 first for way over 70 minutes presentation when our Mayor and Council could have changed in agenda at meeting start and place PHGC #2 item instead. After all the well paid consultant by the city looking for his 35 city manager suggested candidates could have waited a litter longer after all as gets paid by us to attend the meeting and us all some elderly, some like in my case caring for a relative at home that needs us to get back soon are considered. Some of our elderly and non golfers attending had to leave given the long item 2 presentation. This is something that has to change in our council meetings. The hot community items for which we show in droves to oppose or discuss need priority in council agendas. Our PHGC is not for sale but let do not laid down our watch! Lets see what will happen with the Southern Recreation Center incoming $600,000 a year cost then too.We need the proper financial management of our amenities tp preserve them all. We elderly that never even had students in our schools, gladly pay the school high taxes of those complaining about PHGC cost, so then you better THINK why did you move to Palm Coast, as we did.
DJM says
If as another article claims that the course loses approximately $215,000.00 per year with over 50,000 rounds played there is something wrong with the management of the golf course. You have another golf course willing to open its profit and loss statement for comparison and you ignore. It appears Mike Norris and his new council are falling in step with the old council, they know better than anyone and don’t care what people say. If they didn’t lose this money yearly could they make my property taxes less? How can you lose money when you subsidize operations? Maybe all the city workers need to find another city breast to suckle on and get off the golf course. I again quit playing here as the course is in rough shape and repairs are not being completed.