Palm Coast will eliminate what had been a proposed speed limit for ebikes, the allowable age limit for riders was further reduced to 11 (it had started at 15 two weeks ago), and student IDs would be a permissible form of identification for riders, as opposed to government-issued IDs, according to the latest version of an ordinance the Palm Coast City Council is crafting.
After hearing a first version of the ordinance last week and reworking it to some degree, the council approved the proposed ordinance today with further changes, on first reading, on a 4-1 vote. Council member Theresa Pontieri was opposed solely on the age requirement, which drew the most discussion from council members in the 55 minutes the issue took up in their meeting today.
Further changes to the proposal are possible before the ordinance is approved on second reading in the first week of October. Pontieri asked for community feedback in the next two weeks, and for crash data involving ebikes from the Sheriff’s Office.
The proposed ordinance’s latest amendments were mostly influenced by a two-page list of suggestions from Andy Dance, who chairs both the County Commission and the Flagler County Community Traffic Safety Team, which gathers representatives from local and state governments and advisory voices to explore safety issues. The council incorporated the entire document in the ongoing rewrite of the ordinance. (See Dance’s document here.)
The document makes definitions of such things as recklessness more precise, spells out the sort of audible signals bikers would be required to make in some circumstances, makes allowances for school IDs, modifies the definition of off-road bikes, and so on. Dance called the latest version of the proposed ordinance “much improved” from the first version a week ago, and that was before today’s amendments.
At first council members were willing to lower the age limit to 13. “I’m still struggling with putting an age limit on this,” she said. “I believe in parental rights, I believe in being safe, but I don’t know that we should be telling parents what types of bicycles their kids can and cannot have.” She considers age limits on ebikes “overstepping” and inconsistent.
“Any bike as a regular bike, you can still go faster than 20 miles per hour, the ebike portion is irrelevant,” Pontieri said. “So why are we putting an age on? We are singling out the ebikes. I just don’t think it’s right.” She would support an age requirement for Class 3 (those bikes that can go up to 28 mph), but not for Class 1 and Class 2 bikes.
To Council member Dave Sullivan, “there is a number where you’d say, No, a child at seven years old or six years old should not be operating an ebike.” But he did not say why. “There are limits to where we could get ourselves in trouble by not having some kind of a limitation in there.”
There are no such limits today, Miller said. Safety decides it. “I don’t necessarily think that, say, a 12-year-old is just by nature unsafe compared to a 13-year-old,” he said. He and Pontieri had support from the floor.
“How can we legislate freedom and development of the children, because unless you let them take some risk, they never learn to be responsible,” Chantal Pruninger, a resident who addresses the council on most matters, said.
Pontieri is willing to consider certain safety regulations, such as having children younger than 13, traveling on or along a road with a 35 mph speed limit, could have to be accompanied by an adult. But she did not want the miscreants framing the ordinance. “We can’t make law based on wrongdoers who are violating other laws, now we’re just imposing on perfectly law-abiding folks’ rights,” Pontieri said.
The 10 mph speed limit in the first version of the ordinance was removed because to enforce speed limits would have required new signage. Instead, Marcus Duffy, the city attorney writing the ordinance, said, riders will be expected to ride “not in any unsafe and reckless manner” and not at “excessive speed.”
Dance’s examples specified what that means: “failure to yield, failure to slow when passing pedestrians, failure to give an audible signal when passing, failure to operate with due care, and excessive speed.”
Tampering with ebikes will be prohibited if the bike is to be used on public areas in the city. That means no removing pedals or manipulating the power source to lift speed capabilities. An ebike that has no pedals or operates at above 28 mph does not meet the city’s definition of an ebike.
“We all agreed at the last meeting that we discussed this, that the education and training was an important piece,” Council member Charles Gambaro said. But it’s not yet clear how that education will be offered.
One resident, Jeff Adams, suggested that the age limit could be removed but if a rider gets in trouble, so should the parents. “If we’re going to allow them to make the decisions when and where, maybe we can have them put skin in the game,” he said. “The child gets caught doing something wrong, the adult gets fined.” There does not seem to be much appetite for that.
Jay Wagner, another resident, said: “By the same token in parental rights, some parents may think they have the right to beat their child, but they don’t. Some parents may think that their child is mature and coordinated enough to drive a car at the age of 14, but we have laws against that, and I agree with Councilman Sullivan, at which point do we draw the line?”
Dance, who also addressed the council, is a biker himself, and habitually goes on lengthy rides. It’s one of the ways he stays connected to the city and the county. He wants elected officials to think of such regulations as part of a larger whole that accommodates the movement toward ebikes as much as its reasonably regulates it, without choking up its potential.
“I would love Council to make a commitment to invest in connected, shared use networks as we move forward,” Dance said, referring to the way many cities now incorporate biking as part of the transportation mix. “What we’re facing is a lack of that network, where we’re able to have different types of mobility users on the roadways. So as we move forward, as each project is developed and comes before you, let’s look at shared infrastructure, making safe paths for walkers, riders and drivers alike.”
The revised proposed ordinance below does not include the amendments and recommendations from today’s meeting:
ebikes-ordinance-revised
not sure solution says
I don’t like the school id’s being used. A child must then wear the id everywhere and currently the id does not have the student’s age or grade level on it. If the id is lost, then that puts the student at risk. Maybe a parent should have to be called….idk
Standing in the Middle of Palm Coast parkway says
The proposed ordinance should include a ‘wheels on the roadway’ requirement, stipulating that the cycle must have all wheels on the roadway at all times. Too many young people are ‘popping a wheelie’ (lifting the front tire off the ground and riding on the rear tire) and driving along (or into traffic).
What happens when a rider is on private property, for example, in the Publix or Island Walk parking lot?
Stephen Verrier says
Unconstitutional. Period.
James says
As an avid life long bicyclist who has recently experimented with an E-bike, I feel I need to add my somewhat more informed opinion here, since this council is clueless.
(1) Age requirements… you’re going backwards.
There should be an age restriction on the operation of an E-bike… at least 18 years old… if they have a driver’s license, they probably are responsible enough to get around on the average E-bike sensibly.
Children should NOT be given an E-bike to ride around on… ESPECIALLY if it’s their first bike… I’ve found that there is a learning curve even for someone such as myself. It’s best for younger people (and perhaps some inexperienced adults) to start off with a conventional bike.
These E-bikes are intended as a substitute mode of short distance commuting for adults, they are not playthings. Unfortunately we live in a society where some parents would give their child a $700 (or more) “toy” and tell them to go play in traffic… that’s life, it’s just what it is, what can one say.
(2) Not all E-bikes are created equal. Some are not even actual E-bikes, but modified standard bikes… or worse yet, modified trikes.
At one point I had considered modifying a bike I owned, but quickly discovered that it was more prudent (and cheeper) to just purchase a new entry level E-bike. The frame of the old bike… nor its breaking system… was designed for the speed and power that an add-on aftermarket “electric wheel” is capable of producing. A trike modified in such a way would be an even worse danger in my opinion.
In addition, “pedal assist” control modules take time to adjust to using, even for an experienced bike rider… and until one does, can be a distraction… this is part of that “learning curve” I mentioned.
(3) All riders must wear an appropriately rated helmet.
(4) Speed limits? Yes, I would agree that 20 mph should be the top speed limit on these bikes. But again, not all E-bikes are created equal. My E-bike, which is a pedal assist type, tops out at about 18 mph (btw, not a speed I’m comfortable with, but one has to know).
Unfortunately, I can’t see a reasonable way of enforcing such a limit. Are officers going to hide in a bush with a radar gun and a bike of there own? Are they going to have a 10 mph “high speed chase” down the sidewalk?
Probably not.
This is a problem of a general decline in civility, patience and restraint in our society, and isn’t unique to bike riders.
The suggestion in (1) of an age requirement is straight forward to enforce, as is (3). The more subtle problems in (2) are due in part to personal choices and the general state of (or lack of) clear standards in the manufacturing of some of these bikes.
A suggestion for (4) is that if a law enforcement officer has reason to stop a rider for speeding, that that rider should be warned of the danger he or she poses to themselves and others, and given a referral to a bike and motor vehicle safety class… if that speed were in excess of 20 mph on a sidewalk, a busy one… they should in all probability be given a ticket AND the referral.
Who should run the bike safety class? How about a local bike shop… this is a perfect time for these folks to get out in front on this issue.
Just some suggestions.
Villein says
Palm Coast and Flagler County do a lot of dumb stuff, but nobody needs regulations on bicycles, battery powered or otherwise. The fact that these geniuses are literally “bike shedding” speaks volumes about their intellect and management skill. God save us from the morons in power.
Just put a ban on the bikes that go above 28 mph unless a permit is acquired or whatever. Even writing this comment is a waste of damn time.
PeachesMcGee says
If your child dies on the side of road with no ID, who get notified?
FedUpWithFlaglersNonsense says
It would make sense (something that Palm Coast doesn’t have) to seek “input” before making the rules.
You cannot be serious says
I remember back in the 70’s when the MOPED was all the rage. There was little restriction and teenagers were renting them from MOPED shops which seemed to pop up everywhere then the INEVITABLE began.
I personally went to 2 funerals of friends who were killed riding MOPEDS, and there were plenty others during this time. That’s when local governments began cracking down on the MOPED rental industry, then again who could have predicted any tragedies when you allow unlicensed, untrained, uninsured kids rides bike which can go up to 40 mps in traffic at night and if you live in Palm Coast on pedestrian sidewalks.
Does anybody think anymore ?
BIG Neighbor says
Are these regulations being determined as a reaction because we failed to anticipate a future where personalized technology and mobility take over the landscape, whether it’s roadways, scarce sidewalks or trails. If we talk networking, nextGen, Transportation Planning Organization, shouldn’t these concerns already been addressed? Surely we’re not the only municipality working these deviations? What is the point of having a TPO? I’m so confused
No enforcement says
So the biggest issue for the commissioners in this hell hole of a city is a bicycle ordinance, which they have no way to enforce on thier own? Code enforcement doesn’t even enforce current code violations.,and FCSO will not be bothered to even try to enforce bicycle issues.
Maybe they should look at larger,major,issues instead?
Water,sewer,crumbling roadways,traffic and crime cone to mind
No enforcement says
So the biggest issue the city council has is bicycle regulations, which they have no way to enforce? You know Stalys crew will not be bothered with bicycle infractions.
In my opinion the council has more pressing issues
Traffic
Crumbling roads
Water
Sewer
Rampant crime
Come to mind as a better place to spend time resolving?
MARGARET MINUTAGLIO says
Seriously? Am I reading this wrong. They won’t lower the speed limit and they want young very very young 11 yr. old driving these death bikes? What else can Palm Coast do to show how ignorant they are? It’s disgraceful and they should be ashamed.
Love to ride says
This is a good start, many thanks to our leaders for this.
I hope we keep all bicycle rules and incorporate them into the e-bike policy. Have students take a safety course, which means creating one.
Student ID’s, great idea, they can put in their backpacks or saddlebags. Age limits, I believe it’s important, what that age should be, I’m not sure.
Passing other people is the most difficult to determine. Slow down, ring bell, yell out “on your left”, etc. but many walkers can’t hear them because They are wearing earbuds! Big issue. Slow down is the only answer I can come up with. Speed limit, overall we should be very careful about that. Riding fast down an empty trail is so fun!
Great work, guys! Keep it up.
Tony says
Does anyone really believe that FCSO will do any e-bike enforcement. They don’t even do traffic enforcement !!!
Charlene says
On Aug. 25, I was about to step out of Petsmart on Rt. 100 when a teen on an ebike on the sidewalk went by at 15 to 18 mph. Had I been 3 seconds sooner in leaving, this would be a different story. He proceeded past TJ Maxx and Michael’s, weaving in and out of people on the sidewalk. He had a helmet on but crashing into someone at the speed he was going would be serious for us both.
Martin D Vickers II says
I have been riding for over 50 years starting after getting out of the Navy and going back to college in Gainesville. I lived in PA for about 11 years. Riding the trails up there I discovered that a bell was useless do to the walkers have ear buds blasting or noise canceling head phones on. I discovered that my coaches whistle could be heard and used it successfully preventing problems with walkers not hearing my passing warnings. Came back home to my home state of Florida and was informed my whistle was not legal to use here. I checked the law and was informed that even if I used the state approved sounding device and the walkers did not hear it my only option was to get off the bike and hopefully be able to walk my bike around them without them crossing into my path. Walkers need to be able to hear their surroundings for this warning to work. Can you imagine if fire engines and ambulances could only use a common car horn to alert drivers of their presence.
Mike D says
Ride your bikes on the road where they belong
Stephen Schlosser says
Yet the law also states they cannot be ridden on the sidewalks and must be ridden on public roadways…now without a driver’s license required on a motorized vehicle. Can’t see how that’ll be an issue! Way to go Palm Coast, job security for the EMTs and Police I suppose all at the expense of our children’s safety.
Mark Webb says
I agree with others here that say you can write any rules you want, but inforcement is another issue.
I raised two boys and learned early that rules without action is a waste of time.
When the rule had a speed limit of 10 mph the FCSO told the council that they had no method to verify their speed because the size of these bike wouldn’t be seen by standard radar.
Are we, the citizens of Palm Coast willing to pay for FCSO to support this ordnance by stopping kids when the are breaking the rules?
Bike helmets are required for kids under 16, I believe.
I see daily kid without helmets.
I wonder how much more money FCSO will ask us to give them next year?
My thoughts.
Brian Jozefiak says
Only in Florida can something as dumb as this be allowed. For all practical purposes these things are motorcycles.
Waste of time says
I believe all our current Nike paths have signs tgat say “no motorized vehicles allowed”
E bikes are motorized
Who is enforcing the current policy ?
Will there be bike path radar ? 😂
How about stupidity tickets to ANY bike on the roadway when a bike path is available?
Jay Tomm says
Yesterday I was about run over at Waterfront walking when some douche on an massive e-bike with massive tires decided to not even slow down when passing me. WTF? They don’t belong on the paths or trails!!!!!
Bill Boots says
Are ebikes registered, do they carry mandated ‘liabilty’ insurance when they hit a pedestrian or t-bone my tagged and insured motor vehicle, who fixes my injuries or my vehicles?
Florida Girl says
Alright, here goes my two cents!
Some consideration is better than NO consideration. Nothing is set in stone, yet. AND I beg to differ about FCSO not regulating the laws or traffic of E bikes. I have personally seen FCSO on the side of the roads with E bikes or bicycles. AND make lawful drug and alcohol related arrest even. I have even saw FCSO make DUI arrest off the back of a horse about a decade ago. Are they able to be everywhere all at once? Probably not.
Five years old. In Florida, younger individuals can obtain a state-issued ID if they are at least five years old. So, why use a school ID if “legal” is the leg we are going to stand on. If you are going to place your child on that black top with an electric vehicle, ensure they have the proper attire. Obtain a state issued ID for them.
The school ID is for the schoolhouse, not the roadways. My grands could easily get away with using each other’s IDs. They look THAT much alike. Not that they would. However, they certainly could. Especially considering that law enforcement does not know my family like the schoolhouse does.
I live in the Town Center area. I, much like James in the comment section above, have ridden much of my life – I grew up beachside. Today, I am fifty-five years old. I dream of the days when I could ride my bicycle like I did back then. I can’t do that because of injury, age, and illnesses.
I want my grandchildren to experience the SAME childhood I did, but this is an angry world we live in today. AND to be able to go out and play with my grandchildren, I ride a peddle assist. My three-year-old grandson weighs fifty pounds, and I have a trolly I pull him in attached to my e bike. I do this so I can go the distance. It’s difficult for me at my age to peddle him around. Impossible actually due to injury. He is not a free-range chicken quite yet. I often have his siblings in tow. The four of them ride an electric scooter so they too can go the distance.
We dearly love our forms of electric transportation. It’s a nice alternative to get back out into nature and society – you get to be face to face with its people. Well, it’s nice most of the time.
Discipline is derived from the word disciple, which I personally think we the parents are meant to teach. I spend a large part of this time teaching my grands the laws of the road, one day they will drive. We practice these while we are out there in motion. Even though I am on a sidewalk or bike path. It is us, the parents that introduce them to society. I teach them how to treat people! While I “try” to obey the laws of my land. At NO time are we going over ten miles an hour. Theirs has safety features to prevent that from happening.
That is often NOT what we are met with though.
To the parents that are reading this, if this comment makes it past the moderator. We meet a lot of people JUST like us, out there. Other moms or dads or grandparents and whatnot. BUT there are those that are dangerous. Or feel dangerous. Real situations that could have hurt if not ended my grands had I not been there due to lack of experience in life at their young age.
Although you the parent have provided a really high tech and fancy and expensive way for your child to ride around town in with the E bike. So, they can “get away” if they have to. They can call you on their phone or even call law enforcement if they have too. YOU feel safe with that tracker and everything. ALL you have is a false sense of security. Nothing will bring them safety like you. No one in this world will look out for them, love them, protect them, like you do.
You may not know it, because I didn’t either until I rode out with mine. You have made your child a target. A target to get robbed, possibly worse. They will steal their phone, their e bike, maybe even them. There are people sleeping in the woods along that bike path where the old railroad used to be, one wears an ankle monitor and intentionally hides from people! They hide everywhere in this county because is damn near illegal to be homeless. Sleeping around every park they play in. They drift in from other places and stay a few days and drift further. FCSO has picked up men that were wanted for murder in other states out of these homeless camps, don’t be delusional, be diligent. That makes whole camps falls of unchecked (according to statistics) mentally ill, drug and alcohol addicted members of society you’re sending your babes out there alone up against. This is not EVERY homeless person, and I am not bashing the homeless.
AND children are children. They are curious and they test boundaries, sometimes hourly if not by the minute. Do you think your child’s eleven-year-old mind can out smart a career criminal? OR that you can make it to them before any real damage happens? I don’t send mine out alone because I have been out there with them.
We have almost been run over countless times because the traffic on the roads just won’t see us, even though we are at crosswalks with cross lights. The traffic is horrible. People are angry, and they just do not care. AND their children are JUST like them. They have NO respect for anything. Not all of course, but mostly.
I’ve almost been hit by a children on an E bike AND I have six-foot day glow flags from my grandsons trolly AND flashing lights. Some of these children riding these E bikes have NO road experience and can barely stop them let alone ride them. How can they be expected to make rash decisions in an emergency situation on the edges of these roadways? It’s the same with this mentality in the vehicles, unfortunately.
Unfortunately, it’s not just ONE problem to sort. It’s not just the man-eating E bike.
Bill Spain says
I am an older man of 70 with health issues like copd and a bad hip.I got an ebike that is a class 3 last year that is a class 3 and it has given me the access from the parking lots in parks and along beaches I was not able to access before,it acts like an electric wheel chair for me but much better for longer distances. My bike can do about 28 mph if needed but I very seldom do.I think at least they should give a handicap sticker so us older folks can have more access to parks and other areas they are starting to not allow ! And on a different note, my car can do over 100 mph if I wanted to , how come My car is not banned from a 30 mph road ?
TR says
Villein, First you say there shouldn’t be regulations and then you say there should be a ban on bicycles that go 28 mph or faster? Sounds contradictory to me. Besides some of these kids can peddle a normal bicycle faster then 28 mph, so then what?
Laurel says
Oh my God! Will y’all just leave people alone? I’m surprised y’all don’t want to make everyone walk. Geez, get a life. Half the people who come down here can’t drive worth a shit, but are in a big hurry to control everyone else.
Sunny says
This is STUPID! As someone who has hit a child yes a child! They do not believe anything can happen to them, but it will! The deaths & brain injuries will be on the hands of this devastating decision not to mention the poor person who will hit them & have to live with it every damn day of the rest of their lives !
Keith says
As a bicycle enthusiast for over 60 years I feel I must put in my two cents. I’ve worked in several bicycle shops, raced, toured, mountain bike, and now mainly restore bicycles. Originally e-bikes were pedal assist with no throttles. They were ment for commuting, short errand runs, for those with limited peddling ability due to handicap or age. Nice for saving gas , the planet, and not having to change your shirt when you reach your destination from sweat. Most of the e-bikes I see doing 25, 30, and more mph, are not peddle assist. They are throttle controlled motorized with limp unused pedals. That, being an electric motor, gas, or nuclear, makes them a motorcycle. Seems like those who do register, insure, and obtain a operator’s license for their vehicle are kinda fools, when you can get from point “A” to point”B on an e-bike/motorcycle by not having to. And “no”, children cannot maintain over twenty mph like an e-bike. If a 12 year old or younger can keep up with the speed of a 20 plus mph e-bike for any distance, on a standard childs bicycle, better get them signed up for Olympic training or Tour de France at the least.
This brings us back to the children. Why are we encouraging them to get their lives started by being lazy and not exercising by not peddling a real bicycle? Also they are forgetting that the key word in “sidewalk” and “crosswalk” is “WALK”! Unless the law has changed, bicyclist are only afforded the right away in a crosswalk, if they dismount their bicycle and walk them through such. Sidewalks with walkers and fast cycling is a volatile mix. They’re not wide enough. There is enough problems with the two on multi use wide trails. Everyone thinks it’s a trail for them and etiquette is thrown out. Adding children and some adults on 28 mph e-bikes into the mix on either sidewalk or trail is just asking for a lawsuit waiting to happen. If it hasn’t already. Don’t even get me started on how these so called e-bike mountain bikes tear up the already fragile local wooded natural trails with sand based substate. Allowing them on these trails has soured me from riding my real mountain bike, after a run in with several electric motocross style non pedal e-bikers ruining one of my favorite trails by rutting, skidding, and taking the top organic surface component off. This is what holds the trail together versus riding on 5 inch deep sand. Sorry I got off topic, but I have no love for these Chinese built lazy makers in any way, shape, or form. Aren’t there enough injuries and deaths from bicycle involved incidents without throwing gasoline, or in this case, electric onto the fire? E-bikes sadly are here to stay but strict rules and regulations must be put into place or the hospitals, morticians, and lawyers are going to get a lot richer.
will says
The new regulations are a joke. We all know nobody is going to enforce them when I walk the trail they come up from behind you. They do not even announce that they’re coming up from behind you if I get hit in my ass or hips I’m out. I’m down. God only knows when I’ll be found the other night three punks coming up from behind me. They yelled at me a old man get the fuck off the path great new generation of punks now I will carry a stick if that shit happens again. I’ll shove the stick in the spokes
MITCH says
Policies / Rules / Regulations / Laws are only good if they are enforced. If it makes you feel good to have them on books that’s alright, but those that are given the responsibility to enforce them don’t always see them as being good or enforceable.