The Palm Coast City Council has placed the city’s 26 miles of saltwater canals on its list of priorities for next year. But don’t confuse that just yet with dredging the canals. The city doesn’t yet know what must be dredged and at what cost except in the most general terms, and doesn’t know how to pay for it all.
With that in mind, Palm Coast government will soon be asking you: Do you live on a saltwater canal? Do you think dredging the canals is necessary? Do you think a special assessment (or tax) should be imposed on those living on a canal? Plus a couple of other questions.
The survey questions themselves raised questions among council members during a workshop on Tuesday, shedding further light on where the council members stand regarding dredging and its most vexing question: who should pay for it, and should those living on canals be made responsible, or more responsible, for that cost than those elsewhere.
Obviously, every council member would prefer that money from other sources–the state, the federal government–cover the cost. But it’s a very substantial if still vague cost, ranging between $20 million and $58 million. If residents are to pay for some or any of it, Council member Ed Danko is adamant that it should be a shared responsibility across the city. He appears to have Council member Cathy Heighter’s support. But the three other council members, including Mayor David Alfin, are not prepared to decide that just yet.
It’s not just the cost, Alfin says.
None of the survey questions “address the ongoing issue of private property, sea walls that are not up to snuff,” Alfin said, “nor does it address vacant lots that do not have sea walls at all, nor does it address liabilities with regard to private property, meaning docks and piers, that could be negatively affected through a dredging process. So there’s a whole lot more, which probably makes that number look small.” That number being the cost estimate of dredging.
Grants may not be as ready a source of revenue as council members hope. “A lot of these grants are actually more tied to communities that are disadvantaged, or to improvements to water quality, or coastal rehabilitation,” Stormwater Engineer Carmelo Morales said, making Palm Coast “a little bit too good to qualify for some of these. That’s a little ironic, because we’re identifying it as potentially needing dredging. But there are some opportunities out there, but it’s challenging. It’s not a ton of them.”
To Alfin, the more immediate question today was whether the canal issue should be a council priority for the coming year or not, he said.
There was no doubt that the council wanted it a priority. The plan will be “developing a maintenance plan for the saltwater channels,” in Acting City Manager Lauren Johnston’s words.
The council would decide during the coming goal-setting process (or Strategic Action Plan” process) at that point what to spend, if anything, and how. “The arithmetic is not available to calculate it” just yet, Alfin said, though the council could also devise options, among them–possibly–defining what the special assessment boundaries would be.
But that’s still a very uncertain option, with council members like Danko and Alfin reluctant to leave the impression that a special assessment is in the works.
Pontieri, too, wanted to have certain markers on whatever happens next: She doesn’t want to commit to any dredging without “knowing exactly what the overall cost is going to be,” she said. The most immediate preliminary phase will cost $46,000, but further phases get more expensive fast: Phases 3 and 4 another $400,000, and phase 5, the actual dredging, would cost anywhere from $20 million to $58 million at today’s estimates.
“Spot dredging,” or limiting the dredging to specific areas, is more likely, Danko said in light of the city consultant’s findings, presented last August.
The mayor isn’t convinced. “I had an education on that recently,” he said, “it’s not nearly what you think. So just to get to that point where you can spot dredge is huge money,” Alfin said.
Some of the survey questions drew objections, but were not eliminated. Danko wasn’t comfortable with the first question: “Do you live on a saltwater canal or not.”
“I’m not quite sure what that has to do with our responsibilities to maintain those canals,” he said. “This is not a class warfare item, in my view. I’m not quite sure what this accomplishes, to be honest with you. It’s like, do you live on a golf course? Most people don’t. To me, it’s kind of like: we still have a responsibility towards our golf course. I don’t live on that road, but we still have a responsibility to that road.”
To Pontieri, who doesn’t want to “create this divide of those who live on a canal versus those who don’t live on a canal,” the question is not so much to determine how many people do or do not live on canals, but how those who do respond differently than those who don’t. That’s why she proposed the question about a special assessment.
Looking at the potential costs, Pontieri said the council has to start considering “whether or not a special assessment for people living on the canals is what needs to occur. I’m not saying whether I’m in favor of it or not in favor of it, I need to see more information and really consider it. But I also think that it’s something that should be asked of our residents, because there could be a lot of residents that live on the canals that say, Hey, I don’t mind being assessed just dredge my canal.” If there is “a very large outcry for no,” Pontierti said, that should inform the council’s steps further on, especially if the dredging has to be funded the way the city’s storwmater system is funded (with a monthly fee on utility bills).
Mayor David Alfin did not think the question Pontieri wanted to ask would be relevant, though he had no objection to adding it.
Residents will not get that survey until late spring or early summer. There’s a community survey among the public now and until May 10. Johnston doesn’t want the two to overlap.
Celia Pugliesi, a business owner and frequent speaker at council meetings, has lived on a property along a main saltwater canal since 1991. “the city council needs to learn that the sea walls are not the responsibility of the city at all,” she said. “Forget about the sea walls. Don’t even mention the sea walls here.” She said the main canals don’t need dredging as “side canals” may. She also noted that the canals drain the entirety of the city, so she would oppose “any special assessment” singling out canal property owners.
The comment prompted Pontieri to request for a future meeting a more precise analysis of the share of drainage that the saltwater canals account for, as that would determine whether the dredging is looked at as a stormwater project or as simply a dredging project.
“It’s not the whole city, by the way,” Morales, the stormwater engineer, said.
Tired of it says
Watch real estate values tank. Are you going to charge those who use the canals but don’t live on them, for using them?
Tre says
They want to live on canal….pay canal tax.
Tired of it says
We already do. I will compare my tax bill to yours any day.
Deborah Coffey says
And, I’ll compare mine to yours. We live in Toscana and are charged for the widening of Old Kings Road…which has been on the drawing board for a decade and a half or more. Not happening.
Gus says
Want to live on a golf course pay golf course tax!
Celia Pugliese says
We do, we already pay double than you do in taxes and also more than double the cost of the houses.
Mary Jane says
The saltwater canals have been there since the town was started and the City of PC is now just addressing this issue. What took so long?
And those that live on them should pay for whatever is needed not for someone that doesn’t live on them foot the bill.
Laurel says
Mary Jane: What about public roads? Should only those who live on the public roads maintain them financially alone?
Celia Pugliese says
Bingo Laurel! TY!
Bill C says
A fallacious and specious argument. It would be relevant if there were as many boats on the canals as there are cars on, for example, Belle Terre, Palm Coast Pkwy, Old Kings Road, etc. combined. If that were the case you can be sure that those who live along the canals would be screaming for the necessity of permits to limit the amount of boat traffic in front of their homes.
Bill C says
PS there is no equivalency between the amount of boat traffic on the canals and the amount of vehicle traffic on the roads of Palm Coast.
Laurel says
Bill C: Really? Have you seen the boat traffic on the ICW on a Saturday or Sunday? Apparently not! It’s a wild west free for all, with little to no consideration of others or wildlife, and no monitoring. This stuff would not be happening in south Florida.
To block off sections for retention/detention ponds for special assessment overlays, and cry that it only benefits some, is ignoring the fact that the city is trying to do something towards drainage. There should be a lot more of it around the city, especially in areas that there are new builds in older neighborhoods.
It’s really amazing how many people get upset thinking that one area is preferred over another. Hold the commissioner’s feet to the fire, and demand more such projects!
Deborah Coffey says
I agree, Laurel. What about a 60-40 split for the canal dredging or, something like that? That way, everybody is paying for drainage and some of us pay for “use of the canals,” too.
Jack says
Does this mean that runoff from rain in you secion find another place to go?
Fritz says
These canals are MAN-MADE canals when the city was designed and built. These canals were a marketing tool used by ITT to draw in buyers. There is no public access to the canals unless a property owner is going to let me drive thru their yard and launch my boat.
Yes, the canals are a secondary/tertiary outlets for storm water in some areas, but the canals are limited access to property owners along the canals and not for general or public access. Just go try fishing in one via access from the intercoastal and you will receive some unfriendly reminders that you don’t belong.
Canal dredging should be paid by those that live there and not by those of us that don’t.
Why should I have to pay to maintain private property that’s not mine????
Laurel says
Nonsense. I can get back to all those saltwater canals by boat, no problem. There are also public launches if you just look around.
Tired of it says
You are obviously not a boater. The canals are routinely used by fishermen and pleasure boaters.
Celia Pugliese says
Anyone uses the canals are public and drain the city at least from East of I-95 otherwise all there will be flooded! They were built to drain the swamp that was Palm Coast and from the start were part of the city Storm Water System and still are. See next paragraph of the original ITT Mr, Norman Young : Solutions: whereas conventional techniques have aimed at rapid movement and disposal of rainwater from a given site, the present
Page 135
being utilized in the layout, spacing, and geometry of the dredged canal systems and in establishing minimum homesite elevations. (2) Shallow canal depths of eight feet were selected in order to maximize turbulence and eliminate the possibility of stratification. Therefore, dissolved oxygen levels are maintained throughout the entire depth.
F. Operation, and Maintenance of Canals to Perpetuate Water Quality and Aesthetics.
Studies: Water quality criteria for tidal canals are classified by the State of Florida according to use. They fall into Class III standards for recreation and for propagation and management of fish and wildlife. The criteria governing these waters may be summarized as follows: modern treatment technology required for all discharges into canals: pH range of 6.0-8.5, minimum dissolved oxyten of 4.0 mg/l; coliform bacteria not to exceed 1,000 per 100 ml as a monthly average; no substances toxic to humans, animals or aquatic life; no substances causing deleterious effects or nuisance conditions; turbidity less than 50 Jackson unite above background; and no damage to aquatic life, vegetation, or water use caused by temperature elevation. https://palmcoastcorehomes.tripod.com/id16.html
dave says
Fritz, wrong ; I fish in the canals all the time, by boat. And in the Palm Coast Code of Ordinances, Chapter 50 Waterways, the only rules for boaters is “All vessels operating anywhere in the Palm Coast canals shall operate at a slow speed and observe a minimum wake zone; except from the Palm Harbor Parkway Bridge to the intracoastal waterway where they shall operate at an idle speed and observe a no-wake zone.”
James says
Yup, history sure does rhyme alot.
Just say’n.
The Sour Kraut says
How about all the people who go up and down the canals fishing? If they don’t live on a canal, do they get to pay too? Set a special assessment and see how many houses go up for sale. We are not all rich. Some of us have just been here a long time or bought at the right time.
JimboXYZ says
Sounds like a Palm Coast C-Section issue. The water run off, those with canal front property. Why would anyone West of the area responsible for intracoastal be paying much of anything for that ? I get there are canals west of I-95, but that’s a separate issue if those canals even need to be dredged ? The dredging is mainly for he boating & potential flooding of those homes nearest the intracoastal ? I don’t get the same view where I am everyday, why would anyone not getting that benefit b paying like they do. Same holds for the ocean front properties & beach erosions throughout Flagler County. Those folks bought that property, they had to have had some idea of the costs to maintain it. Those aren’t cheap or affordable properties and the individuals are most likely the wealthiest, if some residents are poorer, then they chose to live there just the same (perhaps Flagler Beach for example). End of the day, the reason homeowner’s insurance is as high as it has become, Insurance Crisis for all the companies that bailed on FL outright is that Ft Meyers, Miami, Mexico Beach where the wealthiest live got wiped out. Their mansions with pools, dockage with yachts, covered parking garages with exotic cars, all of that was insured or should have been insured to some level of the debt on them. Well flooding made most of, if not all of it worthless and the entire system from banks that made loans, insurance companies that underwrote the risk to the wealthier residents as consumers need the masses to pick up the tab. I never get invited to a mansion for a pool swim & bbq, I never get invited for the yacht cruise & I certainly have not drove around in an exotic supercar anywhere on planet Earth. That said I’m not bitter for not having experienced any of that in my lifetime, it’s not that important to me to be an A-Lister for lifestyle. But as a consumer I paid for what I have, insured that and Insurance Companies tell me they want my premium for that risk that they’ve never had a claim for, everything was profitable in that regard. Every year I send them their premium paid in full. and there seems to be plenty of money to pay the execs & Board of Directors quite well. I wouldn’t doubt that those living in Tampa or Jacksonville on waterfront properties aren’t similar to those that were hit in any of the wealthiest of coastal residentials hit hardest by any hurricane for any given year. I just think owning the decisions for accountable & responsible works in this case for dredging or anything else that comes with the view those properties have. Step up and own that much.
Reflecting back to the holdouts for the Flagler Beach property owners that sabotaged the dune restoration & fortification projects, they wanted to be paid for something the Federal Government was providing to protect their properties. That one woman, forget her name, she was the last of the holdouts ? What a piece of work she was/is. Seeking compensation, wasn’t she involved in some sort of fraud ? I won’t say every wealthier type is about that, but one has to wonder how they ended up with the prizes of their wealth, the rest of us have to play by a different set of rules I guess and live more modest lifestyles ?
Laurel says
Here we go again:
The ICW is the responsibility of the Army Corps of Engineers, which a small portion of all of our taxes goes to. It is maintained, not for recreation, or views, but for transportation.
As for stormwater, flooding happens all over any low land, inland and coastal. The idea is for it to run to swales to percolate, and what’s left over runs to freshwater canals, and what doesn’t percolate there, hopefully runs to retention or detention ponds, then runs to saltwater canals, and on to the ICW. We all participate in that.
There was a time, not too long ago, when you could have bought a house on a saltwater canal. Since many didn’t, that was a choice. Those who did, others NOW think they should be able to navigate these canals, but not pay for the upkeep. Huh. Guess what? These canals are navigable, so go fishing and stop griping.
Jack says
Salt water homes already pay much higher taxes than non water homes. Same house on regular lot is almost half the tax- Is that fair?
Duane says
Here’s an idea.
Put a tax on boat registrations and let everyone who registers a boat in the county pay a small amount to use the water. Even traveling in the ICW causes impacts in the canals. Water front property owners pay higher taxes already and the canals are part of the stormwater system. Maybe a stormwater assessment to everyone in the county would be appropriate.
Laurel says
Duane: The canals create a much larger impact on the ICW than the other way around. The normal color of the ICW in our area is green as we are close enough to Matanzas Inlet. It is also normal to have a tannin influence from the native foliage closer to inland after a rain event, but each rain event causes a lot of runoff from Palm Coast as it grows, turning the ICW dark brown, and it is staying dark brown longer and longer over time. The water in the ICW is much dirtier now than it was 10 years ago.
The assessment should not be on the county for the simple reason that the roads in Palm Coast are public but city owned. It is the responsibility of the city to maintain their drainage as they do the planning and building approvals. These systems are separate, and should be permitted as separate.
Jim says
Well, this subject will unite the city!
I do live on a canal. For that privilege I pay a significantly higher property tax than those who don’t I own a separate property in Palm Coast so I’m stating fact, not opinion.
Everyone can use the canals and I see a lot of boats out there so I expect a good number of people who don’t live on these canals use them. Also people fish the canals and park in the swells of property owners while doing so.
I don’t know of anyone stating that, as a homeowner on the canal, I own the canal in front of my property- as far as I know it’s either city or state property. (If it’s mine, maybe I’ll put a toll booth there and collect some fee to pay for the dredging!).
I hope the city will be very careful with how this goes. I can say without question, if it is decided the canal property owners are going to get tagged with a bill that they have absolutely no control over, it’s going to go into litigation as I’m perfectly willing to sue the city over this. In short, you can’t -as a city – require the canal to be dredged and then expect only those living along the canal to pay for it.
But I’ll wait for this to progress along and see what the council comes up with.
Ditto says
Yes, those of us who live on the canals pay higher taxes than a like property elsewhere in Palm Coast. As for use issues, well I pay school tax (no children) my taxes go for pickle ball, tennis, walking paths, dog parks, and a number of other attractions I don’t now or ever have used.
Celia Pugliese says
Kudos Jim! I love the idea of the toll booth!! and yes we already pay double the taxes and the price of the house in a canal…enough! They were built for drainage and the boating is a secondary reason. I will sure join you on any legal need.
Give Me A Break says
I have friends who live on the canal with approximately the same size house as mine on the normal size of 0.23 lot and you know what? My taxes are almost DOUBLE theirs that’s right almost DOUBLE, their taxes are right around $2500.00 to $3500.00 mine are close to $4,500.00, I don’t have kids, they do. Every one of our friends that live on the canal pay less than us, some pay in the 3k’s some in the 2k’s i’m in the 4k’s and have houses behind me enough!
Tired of it says
You are absolutely wrong. Check your facts.
Joe D says
Questions: people want to compare use of Federal, State and Local funds for Flagler Beach restoration and beach replenishment with general funds used for restoring Palm Coast Saltwater canals?
Flagler Beach access is generally public, not limited to private access, even though many of the beach areas are technically owned privately. So there is no limit to general public access for swimming, fishing, walking, permitted seasonal bonfires, etc.
Now, who has public access to these Saltwater canals in Palm Coast? Can anyone ( not just landowners) with a boat launch their boat along these canals? Can ANYONE with a boat navigate all those canals?
If not, then I have a SIGNIFICANT issue with PUBLIC funds (other than what limited GRANT money might be available to private owners), for the dredging of saltwater canals, which essentially only have PRIVATE USE/ACCESS for canal property owners…
Correct me if I have the FACTS of the issue WRONG?
Laurel says
Joe D: The canals are public.
Jack says
Anyone can enter the salt water canal from the Intracoastal water way to one of the 3 access canals. No fee, no pass nothing needed.
JD says
Anyone can use the canals. If you want to cruise the canals on your boat, kayak, SUP etc., that’s perfectly fine. There’s access to the canal system at Long’s Landing Park off of Palm Harbor for paddled craft.
Celia Pugliese says
Anyone uses these saltwater canals…they are public. Not gated anywhere!
Gary says
I believe the only fair solution is to have the people who live on the water and use the canals to pay for their own seawall and dredging.
Laurel says
Gary: The homeowners on these canals pay for their own seawalls, and it’s a lot of money to help keep the erosion of their properties into the canals. The buildup of muck and debris comes from the tides pushing it in, and it settles in the middle, especially at the canal ends, making the canals unnavigable. The muck and debris comes from humans.
Celia Pugliese says
Gary we already have to pay and very fairly for our own seawalls that is nit the city responsibility at all. Most of us do not need any dredging in the main canals that are most of the area.
Gary Kunnas says
No we already pay taxes on the seawalls and docks. That was to be set aside for cleaning the canals. Not wasted on pork. The last 20 years of no maintenance on the canals should have been over 20 million. The areas of the canals that need dredging are where there are no or were no seawalls. Cities fault for not making the land owners put them in. This is a brad west idea who was fired from working for the city
From sending out nasty e mails to the city residents. He wants all of us to pay for his new roads in his new delvelopment. Based on that his development should pay a special tax for the roads. Not the rest of us. Treasa pontieri has no clue of the canals like brad neither live near the canals.
Peaches McGee says
I’m a native and have lived within 4 miles oceanside continuously.
It is my experience that the rich who own on the water always want those less fortunate to pay.
Sadly, the buffoons in charge will make the little dude pay.
Laurel says
Peaches: Go to the Flagler Beach Tax Collector’s website and see just how much those who live on the water pay. You just might be surprised. Also, call a couple of insurance agents and ask them the same question.
JD says
I’m not rich, and I live on the canal. Just bought at the right time.
Joe D says
Yes, in GENERAL, the waterfront properties pay a LARGE premium in property taxes for the privilege. I own a SMALL, 1150 sq ft 2 bedroom 1.5 bath townhome across from the beach, in Flagler Beach, and pay $6500 in property taxes for the privilege.
Dennis C Rathsam says
These folks who live on the canals need to step up! Ya,ll wanted to live on the water…zoom around in your boats, fish whanever you want! When you live on the water it cost more to live, dock maintenance, boat repair…And now years later your canal is full of silt, & mud.Its not my fault, I dont live on a canal, I dont have your benifits, & I,ll be damed if I pay for your pleasure. Pay up folks, your taxes are going up! If you cant afford it…oh well, time to sell, it was good while it lasted.
Ditto says
Laurel, you are 100% correct !
Ditto says
I live on canal, don’t fish or zoom around in a boat, but pay higher taxes just to be living here. I don’t use the sport courts, parks, schools library,and a variety of other facilities that my taxes support.
Mark says
All they have to do is look North to the Fox Waterway Agency in Illinois for a good template. User fees for those that own watercraft and use the canals. Human powered (canoes, kayaks, sail), powered under 16′, 16-25′, 25 to 30′, 30′ to 40′, 40′ to 60′, l60′ and up for example. Let those who use the canals pay for their upkeep with a simple yearly sticker on either side of the watercraft. Why should everyone pay for it when everyone doesn’t use the water. As for dredging for silt build ups caused by drainage from inland then the City should pay for those areas along with the user fees.
Jack says
If it becomes a special tax for salt water homeowners- then the canal should be closed to those residents only. Do people realize that most of the fresh water canals eventually drain into the canals? Look a the one on Florida Park- the fresh water canal behind Farragut drains directly into the salt water canal.
dave says
I don’t care what they do with the canals, just don’t involve families that live in some other part of the county well ( miles) away from water with some special tax to get this dredging performed.
Celia Pugliese says
Canals are part of the Storm Water System as drain all at least from I-95 and east… and we already pay in our utility bill a good storm water system fee that should be covering the canals as well. Just do not use the millions for what not intended.
Poseiden says
This is a great idea. We should include any residents that have a sidewalk in front of their home to this special tax as well. The saltwater front homes own an equal amount of the water as the sidewalk homes own the area the sidewalk is on. Those sidewalks do need maintenance from time to time so this special tax on them will help out tremendously. The point is that anyone can use the canals and/or the sidewalks at their leisure. If they dont use either or both of them its their choice. The city is making a big mistake even suggesting such a ridiculous idea. They should gear up for the massive lawsuit coming their way. The money they will spend in legal fees would have dredged several canals.
Celia Pugliese says
NO, because the saltwater canals a were built by ITT to drain the wetlands were our homes sit today and have been always part of our City Storm Water System as they drain the city. thru the huge culverts that drain and stick out of our seawalls and run under the easements of our lots with pipes and even man holes size drains in the sides of our roads. Can show several just in Club House Drive. So city engineer Marcelo Morales is miss informed. As all fresh water canals drain in our saltwater canals at least east of I-95.
Our comprehensive plan 2035 Page 2 Storm Water System : https://docs.palmcoastgov.com/residents/comprehensive-plan/chapter%205%20infrastructure%20element%202035%20gops.pdf and other documents site our saltwater canals as part of Palm Coast Storm Water System…so lets stop newcomers city staff that are as usual “ill informed: to railroad council and mayor into special thinking special assessments to saltwater front home owners to do any dredging as the seawalls are not city responsibility but property owners instead. But the canals are as stated in the 2035 Comprehensive Plan Page 2: Stormwater Management:
The stormwater management system in the City was created in 1969 and much of the system
functions as originally planned by the ITT Community Development Corporation. The drainage
system uses both the County’s natural drainage patterns (to the east and the west) combined with
a man-made system of swales, canals and ponds to convey, reduce and control the stormwater runoff. The City maintains approximately 1,000 miles of roadside drainage swales and approximately
54 miles of fresh water canals, “26 miles of salt water canals,” 150 miles of ditches associated with
the canal system and related stormwater conveyance structures not located within City easements
or street rights-of-way. The primary issue regarding future stormwater management is the
maintenance of the aging conveyance structures and facilities. The City’s stormwater management
system was designed to accommodate build-out of all the platted lots and some of the unplatted
lots, but this system must be adequately maintained to function properly. The “Palm Coast
Stormwater Facility Plan”, adopted in 2003, proposes to replace or repair the deteriorated facilities
and structures.
I rest my case.
Denali says
Before you rest, you should note that the salt water canals do not drain the entire city. None of the freshwater canals in the “B”, “W”, “P”, “L” and “R” sections and nothing south of Moody Drive drain into these salt water canals. Any fresh water drainage in the “C” section and part of the “F” section does flow to the Intracoastal via the salt water canals. This voluminous rant simply illustrates how you often take one smidgen of a fact and turn it into a mountain. There is absolutely no justification for any property which does not add storm water drainage to the salt water canals to be impacted by a dredging fee for said canals.
Celia Pugliese says
All you B”, “W”, “P”, “L” and “R” s .storm water drains very clearly explained here: https://www.palmcoast.gov/canals/details/12… We have enough storm water coming to our saltwater canals from the C, F and and other sections east of I-95. Correction made. But yes we are part of the city Storm Water System and us such city has to maintain if any minimal dredging needed as we all in main canals do not need it.
Yes I am anonymous says
Celia, based on reading some of your many other posts about many other topics, you do tend to be misinformed and/or lacking complete knowledge on any one of a number of topics.
That being said, instead of ranting on in posts or in public comment or on social media, perhaps get fully informed before taking one smidgen of information and using it to create and back up your point.
Just a suggestion, and I already know you won’t like my suggestion, so no need to respond.
Tim says
Yes they should , it’s not like the beach where everyone can us it . So they should pay a fee to have it done.
Ditto says
Our “fee” is the higher taxes we pay for living on a canal.
Jack says
Well said and very true. Saltwater homes pay more but they do NOT use more services- road use, parks, walkways, fire protection, police…..
John Stove says
Once again we are having a discussion about a part of the city’s permitted Stormwater system (YES…all saltwater canals are part and have been for many years of the system)….they are listed in all their technical documents, codes as well as their permit for Stormwater discharge thru the State.
Do all canals need to be dredged?…no
Do some side canals need to be dredged?….yes
Are the control and maintenance of these canals under the jurisdiction of the city,county or state?….the city maintains local control
Does the city have a line item in their budget documents for canal maintenance?….yes
Has the city adequately funded the budget?…no
So…the city since it has been founded listed these canals as part of its infrastructure and collected fees as part of Stormwater maintenance (which by the way has skyrocketed) and now they want to form a special taxing district?
Absolutely NOT…..you own it, you control it….you fund the maintenance need.
TR says
Well since you educated me on this matter. I would like to change my quick answer to HELL NO.
I’m not surprised that the city hasn’t been doing what they are suppose to do with the money they collect from EVERY homeowner to take care of this. We need a forensic audit to really find out how corrupt the city government really is and hold them accountable for not doing what they were elected to do.
Celia Pugliese says
I could not said it any better John! Lets keep united and informed.
TR says
Quick answer, absolutely.
Brad W says
A special taxing district should be set up. There is absolutely no benefit to any other residents. Dredging those canals would have no influence at all on the City’s ability to manage Stormwater. Those owners are responsible for their seawalls and maintenance 20ft out. Many are not doing that. The costly study showed there is no need. If those owners want it done then let them pay for it.
My thoughts months ago below.
https://www.observerlocalnews.com/news/2022/jan/24/letter-saltwater-canal-property-owners-should-pay-for-dredging-if-its-truly-necessary/
Jack says
Ever think that some of the silt that has deposited in the canals is from the stormwater system?
John Stove says
Brad
You need to better educate yourself on how silt is deposited in our canals….it comes via all the connections from the Stormwater system.
There is a gentleman who has photographic evidence as well as TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) reading from numerous Stormwater outfalls to factually demonstrate in court how the city is violating their permit by allowing this silt to be deposited.
All your ranting on different forums isn’t going to change factual evidence
Greg says
The residents who live there should pay all of the costs for dragging. The balance of Palm Coast sees no benefits. Taxes are for the whole, not the few that will benefit
Villein says
Why would I want to pay for rich folks to get their boats in and out of the side canals? Of course they should pay a special assessment!
Didn’t the mayor just have the city manager fired because she wanted to maintain the storm water infrastructure and it made him look bad?
Mike says
What a great idea, let’s start taxing people for projects according to where they live and what they use. Let’s start with the schools. I never did and never will have kids in the school so I shouldn’t be taxed for that. Let people pay taxes accordingly for the amount of kids they have using the school, same concept. Your swale acting up? Separate tax to fix it, I don’t have a swale. You have a septic tank and want sewers no problem , separate tax on you for that. Your road needs to be paved? No problem, I don’t live on your street and never use your road so separate tax for you. You want a sidewalk, taxed. How about those bike paths? I don’t use them so put up a toll to collect money to fix them just like the hammock bridge. Now after all that my taxes will go down so no problem paying for dredging.
Shark says
Mike – you are absolutely right
TR says
I agree Mike. Apparently this city wants to tax EVERYONE for entities whether they use them or not. I am in the same boat as you with no kids in school and never had any nor will I have any, but yet I have to pay school tax. The other thing is this large tennis/pickle ball complex they just finished. I don’t play either sport so why should my tax dollars go to help build it? The people that want to play those sports should have to pay an annual fee like when someone plays a round of golf.
But like another commenter stated that the canals are part of the storm water system and every homeowner pays on their monthly bill a storm water fee. So where is the money the city collects for the storm water system going? This city apparently has a major problem with money management.
Local double taxpayer says
Absolutely….I live in a subdivision with 2 dirt roads and we pay extra taxes to have our road maintained. It is not included in our taxes it is an additional fee added to our taxes. We pay for our road to be graded on a regular basis and our swells to be cleaned every few years. We had to get 51% of the property owners to sign the agreement for the county to maintain the roads.
Denali says
What in the world does this have to do with a Palm Coast issue? You live on a dirt road in an unincorporated area of the county – your issues are wit the county, not the city of Palm Coast.
Miami North says
SEMINOLE WOODS residents have an ongoing issue with the EXCESSIVE, OVERUSE of Flagler Executive Airport.
All I can remember reading was “You knew the airport was there before you bought your home….”
The same ideology can be applied here with the Canal section.
I just have a hard time understanding how the K, Z, R and many other sections for that matter can be held responsible for the bill.
Celia Pugliese says
We are already paying for the maintenance in our utility bill line Storm Water. You do not have to pay for it. Neither us in a suggested tax district…They been getting the money but used it in other projects. By the way you have all my support of the over use of the FIN Flagler training field airport by the FCBOCC allowing on it touch and goes from flight schools.
Laurel says
This lack of public information is strictly the fault of Flagler County and the City of Palm Coast. I used to write the NPDES Permit (National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System) for a large city in south Florida, and one of my jobs was public education. I’ve been living here about 12 years, and I have seen diddly on public education up here. I think I’ve seen:
1.) Placards on storm drains in Flagler Beach
2.) Two articles on preventing pollution in the freshwater canals.
That’s it. The average citizen, up here, has no clue at how extensive the work is. So now, the city is coming up with a survey to cover its lack of public information? That’s negligent!
The saltwater canals ARE a part of the stormwater system. Everyone is involved. The saltwater canals are navigable to all. Take responsibility Flagler County and City of Palm Coast!
protonbeam says
Should be canal frontage owners only – unlike roads, parks, etc the canals are generally a direct benefit, and only positively impact the property values of those living on them. I don’t care about paving the roads in the C section as eventually the roads in front of my house will be paved. I don’t mind funding a park in the S section as its a community wide enhancement. I dont swim in public pools – but again its a community enhancement . The canals are not a city wide benefit and function just fine in terms of view, water is in them, etc. If boat owners want to ensure they are navigable…well thats on those who choose to have boast capable property.
Ditto says
Just because a person lives on a canal doesn’t mean they own a boat. Doesn’t mean they are rich, either.
Very rarely see a boat visit the canal where I live!
Shark says
There is no reason why the canals should be dredged. There is plenty of water for my eighteen foot boat. If someone has a larger one and the depth of the water is an issue then let them pay for their own dredging.
wow says
Typical Palm Coast that they create canals first, and decades later have to decide how to maintain them. And who pays. And what gets included. This is called PLANNING and obviously there was not a lot done.
Edith Campins says
Well, if I have to pay more because I live on a canal I want my taxes reduced to the same level as those who don’t live on the canals. What a lot of these posters don’t know is that we pay higher taxes because we are on canals. I also want my taxes reduced because I have never had children in our public schools. I also want my taxes reduced because I don’t use our various public parks. Ditto, for some of the sidewalks and roads in the town. I figure that by the time I get all those reductions I should be able to pay the extra fee for living on a canal. I’ve never used the fire deparetment so I would like a reduction for that too.
It coes down to the fact that people think those of us who live on the canals are rich.
DDT says
I see everyone on a canal wants everyone else to pay for the dredging to improve the canal that they use and drives up the value of the home. The reason they say this is fair is that pay taxes for roads and sidewalks that they do not use. The one thing none of them are saying is that their home value is triple the value of the same size home in PC. Big profit when they sell the home!
Edith Campins says
And I will have to decudct all the high taxes I have paid for years from that “profit”.
Dennis Berg says
Edith, I agree 100%. If the canals can not be properly maintained, lower the just value of canal homes.
James says
Abbreviated history of Venice Beach California…
Spanish colonial land region…
… yada, yada, yada…
Mexican government land grant… …Rancho La Ballona…
… yada, yada, yada…
1890s-1910(ish) – Wealthy developer and partners purchase land… drain swamp, build resort town… one partner dies, others continue expansion on more wetlands (marshes) acquired (get this one!) on a coin flip bet. Gets more interesting… builds miles of canals to drain marshes. Builds large (1200 ft) amusement pier…
…yada, yada…
… gives gondola ride tours of canals to potential homesteaders from amusement park/pier…
… yada, yada, yada…
Overextended. Fractious political climate. Pier burns. Loss of tax revenue. … yada… Pier rebuilt. Fun house, other amusements added. … Even eventually adds Flying circus (yep, they had a small airport too).
…. yada, yada, yada…
1925 – Politics become unmanageable due to roads, water and sewer system repair needs due to growth.
… yada…
Consolidation (with Los Angeles). Streets paved, pier closed, many canals filled-in or paved over.
… yada, YADA, YADA…
1929 – OIL DISCOVERED!
… yada… short lived oil boom…
…yada …
1930-40s – Oil drilling waste clogs many remaining canals, also suffering from city neglect, considered “obsolete remnant of past decades of land speculation.” Many more are filled and paved.
1950 – “Slum by the Sea.”
… yada, yada, yada…
… Long road back to stability…
1970s – “The good.” The Canal Improvement Project, the VCA, Pat Russell. “The bad.” Summa Corp., Howard Hughes??? Lawsuits, stagnation. “The strange.” Mr. Green???
… yada, yada, yada…
1980 – More stagnation, dead locked legal battles. Canals still in disrepair. … yada?… 1983 – National Historic Register. … yada?… Coastal Commission. … yada?… Ruth Galanter, Mark Galanter…
… yada, yada, yes!…
1990s – Lawsuits settled, agreement on rebuilding process… yada… 12,000,000 dollars! … More agreement… YADDA, MONEY!!!
2000s – Success! Many surviving canals renovated. Carnival, parties, gondola service restored. Everybody happy!
Happy ending… 70 years in the making.
Should we be so lucky?
Just say’n.
James says
Just too be through…
1982-83 – National Historic Register… there are conflicting dates on Wikipedia.
That should be Mark (or Marc?) Galanty.
The one constant over the entire 70, 80 or 90 (or even 100) year period (depending on when you want to start counting)?…
Constant fighting over assessments and who should pay what to whom. Not much happiness.
Which brings up another observation… we’re these folks, these “homesteaders” ever living in the houses they purchased? Or were they always “investment properties.”
I hadn’t noticed until I read my own abbreviated account… “gondola service restored.”
Interesting, wouldn’t you say? ;-)
Smith says
Laurel
The canals are the responsibility of those who live on them. Would you go along with paying a tax to maintain and dredge the freshwater canals in other areas of the city which you do not live on? I think after reading the self-serving/self-centered comments from you that you would strongly oppose. You are probably one of the canal front owners who think they own the water around their dock and get pissed when people fish it. You are cheap and want others to fund the upkeep of the luxurious lifestyle you are afforded with waterfront living. It is arrogant to assume all residents should have to pay for you to be able to navigate your boat.
Tired of it says
No, just like schools, roads, parks they are the responsibility of the community as a whole. What luxurios life style? My higher taxes, because I live on a canal, ,helps pay for the services and amenities you benefit from. Lower my taxes to the same as those who don’t live on canals and then we can talk about extra fees. The only arrogance is yours for assuming that those who live on the xanals are rich. You are just envious.
Also tired of it says
After reading Laurel’s numerous self-serving posts, we know:
1. She was born and grew up in South Florida.
2. Therefore she thinks she knows everything about environmental issues and Florida ecology, and that no one else knows anything more than her.
3. I do believe she’s also mentioned she lives in the Hammock.
4. She was a government employee.
There’s much more, and I could go on, but that’s the gist. A regular know-it-all, and like you said, I am bored and “tired of it”. Thanks for your post. It needed to be stated.
Laurel says
Also: Don’t like my posts, don’t read them. Simple!
Laurel says
Smith: Aren’t you clever! You certainly assumed a whole lot of stuff. Allow self centered me fill you in a tad. For starters, I do not live in Palm Coast, but in the county. That means I actually have nothing to do with your stormwater responsibilities.
Stormwater was my career before I retired, so I do have considerable knowledge about how roads, runoff, and drainage systems work. So, my intent here is to help people understand it better, and for that, you feel the need to attack me. Oh well, I’ll try to help you understand anyway.
Roads are divided up by ownership such as municipal, county, private and FDOT, which is state. Each entity is responsible for rain runoff, and water quality of that runoff to the waters of the state, and the waters to the U.S.. Stormwater budgets are created for each entity, usually combining municipal and private. Homes usually have a standard assessment, whereas commercial buildings usually are assessed by square footage of impervious areas. Private roads are responsible for maintenance, but are often given a percentage off their bills. In my city, I gave all buildings and homes in privately maintained systems a 25% off their assessment.
The problem I see here, is the lack of education on the topic of stormwater fees/assessments (however Palm Coast does it) and how that money is used. I believe the canal dredging (which should only happen probably every 10 years depending on build up) should have been built in the stormwater budget from the get-go, and had they done that, this would not be an issue today.
When I was working, I had a public webpage that explained what stormwater was all about and how the assessment was calculated. We did newspaper articles, public service announcements, coloring books, giveaways, flyers, booths at numerous events, and much more. I was the one who answered the phone, and in 17 years, I got one complaint. Never, but never, did we have people arguing like this.
The fact of the matter, Smith, is that all the drainage systems within the City of Palm Coast are connected, require maintenance and are the responsibility of all the residents, whether you are close to an outfall, a canal, or stuck in a puddle.
FLF says
What do other communities do? There are many other canal systems in towns and cities that need dredging. Look for benchmark solutions and how they handled it. City of PC; don’t just lob a $50mm price tag pulled out of your keister and drop that cluster bomb in our laps. I don’t live on the saltwater canal system but occasionally cruise the canals and enjoy participating in the Christmas boat parade that really makes you feel part of our community and happy to be part of our city. If the canals are part of stormwater mangement and are part of the drainage tier system from higher elevations then explore federal funds, FEMA, whatever. Get clever and think out of the box for crying out loud. Have someone with imagination that gives a damn figure it out. We absolutley love living here for the last 22 of 55 years living in Florida.
Debbie says
As long as these “salt water” canals function as part of the storm water drainage system do nothing to them. Should at some point these canals fail to properly accept the rainwater run off then dredge or unplug whatever is restricting the proper run off flow. As far as boating, that should not be considered as a issue for maintaining the canals. How deep to dredge? How big of boat should be allowed? Boating should be at ones own risk and cost. If your boat needs four foot of water to float but you only have a three foot depth in your canal, sorry but you need to buy a smaller ship. Taxpayers shouldn’t have to pay so you can float your boat
Pogo says
@FWIW, a reminder
Palm Coast Surveys Cost of Dredging Saltwater Canals, But Who Will Pay Is Big Question
https://flaglerlive.com/palm-coast-saltwater-canals-dredging/#gsc.tab=0
The aforementioned page concludes with taylor-engineering-saltwater.pdf which is readily available to read and/or download.
See the Title Review starting on page 42 (considering the stakes, read it all — carefully) of taylor-engineering-saltwater.pdf:
GARGANESE, WEISS, D’AGRESTA & SALZMAN, P.A.
P.O. Box 2873
Orlando, FL 32802-2873
(407) 425-9566
(407) 425-9596 facsimile
MEMORANDUM TO: Denise Bevan, City Manager
FROM: Neysa Borkert, City Attorney
RE: Saltwater Canals Title Review
DATE: May 19, 2022…
Good evening.
James says
Yup, reading the comments regarding this issue only leads me to believe this is going to be a looooong legal fight.
I like the choice of photo though… makes one think “oh, look at those old modest homes with little fishing boats and kayaks.”
And perhaps there are many, many like that.
But there are many new houses going up in the canal areas… “Mc. Mansions.” There are several multi-unit condo developments… many undeveloped lots with run off, due perhaps to lack of a seawall, etc, etc.
And NO ONE is going to let someone use their backyard to launch a kayak… get real.
Read between the lines folks… it’s your dream, you bought it, enjoy it… pay for it (yourselves). No state agency or federal money is coming because folks need clean
drinking water elsewhere in Florida.
I say get creative… it’s an “historical district,” start a PCCA and give boat tours for the PCCA… fund raise, etc.
Just don’t ask us… we all have our problems here… and the canals have been there for quite some time, from the very start… and will be for a looooong time to come. With or without dredging.
Just an opinion.
Hmmm says
I can see both sides, but food for thought…
The C section saltwater canals are tidal. You can dredge them 50 ft deep, the water level wont change. In a storm situation, if the water came up past the seawall, in the same scenario, it’ll be the same height. You cant beat the ocean.
The difference with the freshwater ditch/canal system is you can actually gain capacity before it starts to flood neighborhoods. Thats why the city can and does lower the levels of the freshwater canals before a big forecasted rain.
So if the reason to dredge is just for people living on saltwater canals can get their boat in the water at low tide, just say so.
James says
Riddle me this Batman… when is a fishing boat “low” in the water?
Think about it.
Hmmm says
You tell me Robin.
What people are expressing is, nobody cares about your fishing boat.
Hmmm says
Sorry. Just got it. When theres alot of fish on board. Right?
Batman says
Yes Robbin, but even a better question… when is a submarine ever “high” in the water.
To the bat poles!
James says
I think Hmmm understands… and Batman definitely knows.
But I wasn’t too sure, but now I am.
Things that make ya go Hmmm…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine
Just say’n.
Irwin M. Fletcher says
So it sounds like the popular opinion is that the canals are free to be used by anyone, and all citizens need to pay their fair share. So anything in the canal should be public use as well. So the general public should be able to use any dock that is in the canal because they pay to maintain the canal.
John stove says
You clearly don’t understand the issue. The city would never dredge any closer than 20’ from the bank or seawall. The city’s technical documents clearly show only the 60’ center section of a typical 100’ wide canal as the section to be dredged. Private property maintenance requirements end at that 20’ mark
So basically the city wants more money to dredge their section of canal, not the private property section
Yeah no
Laurel says
IMF: Does your stormwater fee/assessment pay to build these docks, or maintain them? No, they don’t. Docks are permitted, and paid for by property owners. Canals are public.
Logic, please!
Irwin M. Fletcher says
Laurel: I was merely poking fun at the hubris of those who choose to live on a canal, and are willing to pay for the home, the insurance, taxes, and privilege of those locations. I would go as far as to say that folks who bought in these locations were not motivated to buy there because they were enamored by the thoughts that ITT designed these canal for drainage rather than aesthetics and access to waterways. Canal homes represent a small percentage of the homes in the city and their location is unique and comes with special maintenance. The roads, facilities, and amenities that we all pay taxes to support are mostly common goods that we all can use. However many of them are mutually exclusive where the average citizen must pay a fee to use the service, like the tennis center, pool, golf course and community center. These can be considered toll goods as well as the canals which are also mutually exclusive. If people choose to live in a special area they should pay a special fee for the privilege. Canal homeowners have direct access to an amenity that the majority of our citizens do not have based upon living adjacent to it without any additional cost for its use. If a persons property backs up to a golf course, should they have unlimited access to use the golf course without paying for its use? I’m not saying the canal residents need to foot the bill for the whole project but they certainly need to be significant contributors aside from the normal tax base.
Laurel says
IMF: On one hand you recognize the higher tax rate for canal homes, then on the other hand, you state they should pay more.
Back around 1998, or so, you could buy a house on a finger canal in Flagler Beach, and be able to walk to the beach, for $80K. Most needed some upgrades, but it was affordable. The same thing happened in Palm Coast, where people found canal homes much more affordable than down south, so they went for it. That doesn’t make these same people rich, and they have been paying higher taxes and higher insurance for all the years since.
The fault lies in the fact that the city did not use public education on the topic of stormwater. Now, all people see, who are inland, is that these so called wealthy people have a special privilege, and they do not see that the system is one, and they do not understand that reducing pollution runoff is federally mandated. This was poorly handled, and the survey shows that.
-SG says
The saltwater canals are City property, available for public use. The City assumed maintenance responsibility for the navigable waterways when ownership of the canal bottoms (real property) transferred from ITT to the City. In Jan/Feb of 2024, the City re-affirmed its ownership of these waterways during public hearings related to regulation of Floating Vessel Platforms in residential canals. The City Council, upon recommendation by City staff, the Planning and Land Development Regulation Board (PLDRB) and City Attorney, unanimously voted to impose its own (more restrictive) regulation rather than rely on statewide law that’s been in effect for more than 20 years. In doing so, the City said state law does not apply to City-owned waterways. I guess we shall see if this stance creates any impediment during pursuit of state funding.
Ed P says
76 prior comments before my post, and it would seen that there is very little if any concern about the wildlife. I asked myself, why is everyone so concerned about wildlife when a developer is clearing cutting land? Could it be because the developer is footing the bill? When ever the taxpayers might be on the hook, mother mature appears to be insignificant.
The depth of the canals help support the numerous crustaceans and fish. They do provide drainage. The benefit of getting a hulled boat down the canals is secondary, but a benefit.
I’m suggesting that we need to step back and take the approach of Cape Coral with over 400 miles of canals….more than even Venice Italy. See our canal system(both fresh and Salt) as an asset. Think of them as part of the road system almost like a recreational bike path or park system running through some people’s backyard. I grew up in Cleveland, our claim to fame was the Cuyahoga River once caught fire.
The canals provide needed drainage but they also add value to our city. Everyone’s real estate benefits, some more than others. It’s an asset like the beach, a park, or any other public facility. We should embrace it.
As long as a common sense approach to dredging is used, it may not be as painfully expensive as expected. It’s necessary and must be done, similar to maintaining our roadways.
What happened to all my liberal friends who spout Social Justice and programs except when it’s going to cost them more? You all want to help the world but not your neighbor?
Laurel says
Ed P: I’m still here!
Sadly, many folks are not seeing that the drainage system is not only meant for draining properties and roads, for all of us, but also must comply to prevent pollution runoff into state and U.S. waters. They do not see our communities as a communal responsibility. Instead, they respond with what appears to be jealousy towards many folks who are not as wealthy as they are portrayed here in the comment section.
I agree with your comment about wildlife. There just was an article about manatees here, requesting people to slow down and watch for them. That lasted until the sun came out again, and boats are flying all over the place at top speed. There’s no way these folks are concerned about manatees, dolphins or sea turtles, all of which are in the ICW. Occasionally, these creatures swim up the saltwater canals, too.
Batman says
Don’t worry Laurel, there will always be manatees in the waters of Florida… and some of them might even be real.
James says
Quick, short answer…
“You’re not in Cleveland anymore.”
Just say’n.
Fisherman's view says
I Hunt fish and pay for a license to do so; not much but Id pay more if I had to, considering premium fish is over 20-25 bucks a pound at publix and you can’t get the tastiest fish such as redfish commercial you must be a sportsman. Yes I often hunt the canals because they re there and thats were the fish go, if they weren’t there I wouldn’t be there and if the water was too shallow for my 12″ draft boat I would not go there either as neither would the fish. So unless you can keep My potential dinner out of your backyard canal theres going to be fisherman casting under your dock legally and no, we don’t wish to pay to dredge your canal, I could just find a deeper one. You can’t always tell from the street view but Judging from the backyard pools tiki bars jacuzzis sport boats yachts etc, ya’ll can afford it just fine, so quit yer bitchin!
Really????? says
I don’t live on a canal or any type of water because I could not afford to and not only that I could not afford to maintain the property and then I could not afford to pay the taxes (came from up north $13K per year in taxes). Well for the tax part of it I was wrong because I am paying more taxes per year then some people who live on the canal and I don’t have beautiful scenery nor water behind me but what I do have is idiots behind me. So no I do not want to pay for the maintenance of the canal, I don’t live there, I don’t use it, I don’t have a boat, bad enough I have to pay school taxes and I never had kids. And if I did own a boat and I used the canals then I would be more than happy to pay an extra fee on my taxes when I register my boat. To me that’s fair. And the money Palm Coast is paying for another STUPID roundabout could have been used for the canals instead of pissing people off. Have a good day!
Celia Pugliese says
Really ? you or anyone do NOT have to pay any extra fees for just spot dredging some ends of the canals or so me access and at no were 10 millions gouging cost quoted . We already pay in our storm water system line in our utility bills. The problem is that the utilities reserves have been used for the south OKR and Boulder Rock access to benefit Town Center other than saved for what intended. I live in the main canal and none of the main canals need any dredging…which is most of the saltwater canals areas. So lets talk common senses here and just do not take what some city administrators traying to sell us and council and mayor. We saltwater canal owners already pay double of more taxes than any homes same size not canal front…then were those and the storm water funds go…as canals never maintained as most do not need it, just very few ends of the main canal and just end of the short side canals. get silted. Also we pay double or more for the same house in the canal front. No ones is getting a free ride in the city. I lobby for all residents problems to be resolved whether affecting me or not , as we need to be united in our battle to preserve our quality of life, safety and realistic taxes in Palm Coast and the county!