A group of residents surrounding the Flagler County airport in Palm Coast have for years complained about the constant stream of touch-and-go student flights, about noise, about pollution, and about the county’s own dismissive attitude toward them. It’s not a large group, and by some measures it’s minuscule. But its own noise can compete with the airport’s when it wants to, drawing attention from county and Palm Coast officials and raising questions about whether enough options are being explored.
On Monday, the County Commission heard a report on those issues from Airport Director Roy Sieger and Deputy County Administrator Jorge Salinas. Bottom line: their hands are tied. What measures they took to give residents a chance to air their complaints over four months did not prove constructive, and they have no intentions–no authority—to make any chances, especially since they’d be barred by federal regulations to make most of the sort of changes residents are demanding.
The county had clearly made efforts to study the issue and hear out residents rationally. But if it was an opportunity for the two officials at least to show some understanding for the complaints, to defuse frustrations and perhaps propose a more constructive mechanism to field concerns, they chose not to, undermining their own efforts and fueling the few voices against them.
They had neither sympathy nor much more than contempt, and at times overt contempt, for the residents. They reinforced the impression that, while the airport’s hands may be tied, the county’s attitude is aggravating matters where it could be de-escalating them. After all, this is the same government that a few years ago abruptly scrapped the airport advisory committee, which had been the only balance to Sieger’s otherwise imperious airport administration.
What Sieger did say mostly inflamed the audience. Touch-and-go is safer, at least for neighboring houses, Sieger said at one point as he was addressing the commission from the podium, since the aircraft is using momentum to get airborne again, and needs less runway space. It made sense. People grumbled behind him. Sieger, who does not like to be challenged and tends to respond gruffly, did exactly that: “I know these people don’t agree with me, but the end of the day, you bought a house next to an airport. Unfortunately, you bought a house next to an airport. We did not build an airport next to your house.”
It was a stunningly coarse response that put elected officials in a difficult position: they were not there to provoke residents but to provide them with some explanations. “These people” in the audience did not take Sieger’s statement kindly, prompting Commission Chairman Andy Dance to admonish them. Sieger, pressed on, as if enjoying the baiting: “I don’t really know if it’s a noise issue or just a perceived noise issue, if it’s more of an annoyance to the citizens,” he said moments later, again provoking grumbles and another Dance intervention.
Salinas was more polite. His calmer demeanor more ably hid the contempt his presentation conveyed, with Sieger at his side.
The county from June 3 to Oct 2 activated web portal enabling users to submit complaints. It drew 3,095 submissions from 12 users, or residents, three of whom submitted 98 percent of entries. That left just 73 submissions, Salinas said. Of those, one user submitted 46 entries. The county classified 81.5 percent of the entries as “unfounded,” while 574 were classified as requiring additional investigation.
Complaints were deemed “unfounded,” the airport director said, if they were filed between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m., when the airport permits the schools to do the majority of their flying. To the county and the airport, there are no grounds for complaints during those hours. To those who have been complaining, however, that misses the point: they want the airport to curtail the constant buzz of training flights. To them, the hours of operation are irrelevant.
Examples of complaints filed through the portal: “Directly over my home. For every single day this is not diverted, you will receive a new complaint. They wake me up every day it is not raining and from 7:06 until this email at 8:25 am, I’ve counted 24 flights directly over my home.” Or: “This is such a nuisance with this training schools. This needs to stop and they need to respect homes and taxpayer.” There were also non-complaints, such as: “I do not think there is a problem with aircraft noise. I’m sure there is a disgruntle few residents that would complain about anything! They knew they were moving close to an airport or should have. No change needed. The noise from I95 is 5xs more.”
Sieger contacted some of the people who made submissions. He spoke to them of the “voluntary noise abatement procedures” the county encourages flight-school operators to abide by. “One of the things that we’ve asked them is they make the turns in the green space,” Sieger said,
Salina said the portal was not effective. He concluded that just 10 residents out of 4,298 built-up lots within 2.5 miles of the airport (based on 2019
building data) used the portal. Some filed in rude comments, he said, and to keep the portal open would have generated more of the same. He had few words that would satisfy those complaining: “Staff will continue to monitor air traffic and transgressions, continue to educate pilots and flight schools regarding our voluntary noise abatement procedures,” he said.
Beyond that, the airport is preparing to publish a new website–though what relevance that had to noise issues is unclear–and Sieger will issue a new airport master plan. (The current website includes all current traffic patterns.) Some residents have requested that the airport test the lead content on airport property. That will be done. The master plan could op[en the door to an FAA noise study.
Sieger said he looked into landing fees, as other regional airports have, but pilots don’t favor that. “We took a lot of pushback, and not just from the local pilots, but also the big AOPA too,” he said, referring to the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association. The fees could be between $3 and $6 per touch-and-go.
“DeLand made a big faux-pas on saying that they were charging landing fees to deter traffic,” Sieger said. “We can’t do that. That’s not what we’re doing. This is just if we wanted to start charging landing fees, landing fees would just be another revenue stream for the airport.” Local tenants with planes at the local airport could be exempt, so the flight schools would be exempt anyway.
He sought to impress on commissioners that night flying used to be an issue at the airport, with 25 to 30 planes flying past the 10 p.m. cut-off. That’s been reduced to seven or eight a night.
Does the county have the authority to restrict touch-and-go practices at the airport, as some residents who complain claim the county does? It does not, Sieger said categorically. “That authority only relies on the FAA. If the FAA deemed an operation of an aircraft to be unsafe, they are the ones that have to say it is unsafe,” he said, referring to the Federal Aviation Authority. “We have nothing to do with airspace once that aircraft leaves the ground.” He’s right. (For example, noise the planes emit while airborne is not subject to noise ordinances.)
Pennington disputed the breadth of Sieger’s conclusion, citing from an article to suggest that local governments have some “authority to promulgate reasonable, non arbitrary and non discriminatory regulations addressing aircraft noise and appropriate local interests.” Sieger said the airport has no issue with jet aircraft, which that approach may address–and about which local residents are not complaining.
As reasonable and unassailable as Sieger’s and Salinas’s factual findings and explanations were, their tone-deaf demeanor Monday likely will only ensure that the complaining will continue, likely shriller.
By the time Dance opened the floor to public comment, those speaking had only been as if tuned up by their own version of more-of-the-same dismissiveness from the county as Gina Weiss, who has led the charge on noise for all those years (but says she did not submit complaints through the portal), led it again that afternoon. She called the entire presentation “lies, lies, lies,” starting with the county’s refusal to conduct a noise study, and claiming on vague authority that “we should be compensated for every flight school plane that flies less than 500 feet over our homes.”
Other residents called the touch-and-go flights “a threat to our safety, health and welfare,” as one put it. “This board has been receiving heartfelt and fact filled complaints from exasperated residents for years,” she continued. “I cannot fathom a valid reason why the profits of flight schools would take precedent over the quality of life of the residents of Palm Coast, Flagler Beach, Bunnell and Flagler County, we’ve had enough gaslighting, bully behavior from the airport director and his posse and kicking the can down the road. It’s now time for action, common sense and to stand up to the pressure from those that profit from the destruction of our environment.”
It was ironically the former chair of the disbanded advisory committee, Les Abend–a pilot and airport tenant who’s had his own run-ins with Sieger–who offered a constructive suggestion. “Mr. Sieger is doing his best,” Abend said. “This is a script from every airport across the country. What I learned from some of the folks that have been up here speaking is that information is helpful. So rather than coming up here and complaining and supporting about this particular issue, I’ll volunteer my time. I’ll volunteer my time to talk about some of the issues that they have, because you can’t stop the airport. It’s a federally funded airport, and this is part of the practice of an airport, is to provide the training facility. It’s unfortunate, it makes noise, but I think education is very important for the public. I will take the public up in my airplane and explain what happens during a touch and go what happens during regular landing.”
Mary says says
This reminds me of another county commission back in 2006 who voted to close the C&D facility on South Old Kings Road. Residents in all the newer housing developments there decided to campaign for closing the facility. They said the facility was creating a bird problem and there were terrible smells coming from the facility. Both arguments were false. The facility did not take household garbage and, therefore, did not attract birds nor emit unpleasant smells. A spineless commission folded and closed the facility and thereby cutoff a financial resource for the county. I’m happy to see Mr. Sieger used our slogan ‘we were here first’. My hope is that this commission will not fold. Support and listen to your staff.
Lance Carroll says
I could be mistaken: The landfill on Old Kings Rd. was closed by regulators, well above the county authority, for improper or no permits and the lack of a required subterranean liner to protect the ground water. I could be mistaken….
Anybody care to chime in with facts concerning closure of landfill on S.Old Kings Rd?
Mary says says
You are absolutely wrong. I was there for 10 years. We followed every rule to the letter. The landfill accepted vegetation debris and construction material. NO HOUSEHOLD TRASH! We were inspected regularly by the Florida Department of Environmental Protection. We were never cited for violations. It still haunts me that the commission just folded. The landfill was there when people purchased their homes. I don’t believe the majority of the people living there were complaining. I believe a small group of residents with too much time on their hands started the campaign.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Mary: Your C&D facility has nothing to do with the legitimate complaints
from residents all over our community STOP UNDERMINING the dangers
of the flight school touch and goes upon our communities! You know nothing
about the legal issues pertaining to the lack of AVIGATION EASEMENTS,
look it up and educate yourself. Then come back and comment when you study
the cases like lawyers do otherwise your argument is moot. Stop comparing
apples oranges, one has anothing to do with the other!
Mary says says
My comment had nothing to do with annoyances or safety issues of living near an airport vs. landfill. I was merely pointing out that the commission of 2006 bowed to unsubstantiated complaints. Politically motivated for sure.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Mary: These are NOT UNSUBSTANTIATED COMPLAINTS, these
are legitimate complaints from homeowners, businesses, hospital
patients in our area. It’s still comparing apple to oranges and you
not be commenting on an issue you do not know ANYTHING ABOUT.
Educate yourself first before you speak and learn about Avigation
Easements as this is the thing that they all are conveniently ignoring.
Mary says says
You have a comment about everyone. Must be burdensome to carry around all that knowledge.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Mary: Oh not all it’s really my pleasure and this all comes easy to me to correct people like you but thanks for caring.
Skibum says
The airport is here to stay. It will not be moving anywhere. As difficult as it may be for some to bear, aircraft generate noise when those engines are running… that is exactly what keeps them up where they belong instead of in a divot in the ground if they impacted your house. You may not like to be so close to this noise, and that is understandable. There are undoubtably more suitable locations to live and enjoy quieter surroundings if that is the case. But more complaining, followed by more complaining, and then more again won’t ever result in a different outcome for those who are bothered by the noise of general aviation aircraft yes, to include the touch and goes of flight school students who need the practice and experience of flying to various airports other than the one where their flight school is located. They are doing nothing wrong and the different airports, with different terrain, different obstacles and patterns, etc. is what will help make them good pilots. I know some people will get upset at me once again when I say this, but here goes anyway… if you don’t like living near this or other airports, and the noise from planes flying around above you bothers you that much, the wonderful thing about America is that we are free to move anywhere we want to be. And for those who will repeatedly NOT do anything to change their living environment and just keep replying to me and others with “I can’t afford to move” or “I have lived in my house for decades and shouldn’t need to move” or whatever the excuse might include… then go down to the store and buy more cotton balls to put in your ears because you are not really looking for a solution, you just want to complain, and keep doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result. Sorry, but just like anything else, that will never end in a positive solution for you. Just take a few deep breaths, go outside and look around at this amazing, beautiful world and all of God’s creations, and try to enjoy the positive things in life. I wish you all well… I really do!
BLINDSPOTTING says
Skibum: You are the “JUST MOVE GUY’, you said the same to the flooded victims!
You apologized back then when you received many unfavorable comments from
others for your callous, cruel remarks , but this only shows that you are what you are
so continue to write your history and gloat on your sarcastic miserable remarks for
you have no couth nor class, you could have passed this one up but your natural
true rotten being once again comes shining through. We kinda feel sorry for you
as you are a lost soul with nothing else to do in life but thrive on the misery of others
whether it be surrounding airport communities of flooded victims in Palm Coast.
And once again we will say that homes were built here before the airport, the homes
can’t move but the flight school planes can. And we guess your ok with the training
of mostly foreign flight school students that will become pilots in countries that
hate us and want to destroy us. Or have you forgotten about how we trained the pilots
in Florida who flew into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on 9/11 and lost over
3000 American citizens. History has a way of repeating itself. Maybe you should leave
your seaside mansion and seeing how your local government officials are destroying
this amazing, beautiful world and all of God’s creations and take a good look at what is
really happening all around you. You might develop a whole new perspective and end your
pseudo philosphical rants.
Skibum says
Hi Blindspotting, I wish you well. Where to start? Well, the other day I heard a remarkably informative quote from someone who was being interviewed on a national TV station. He said in essence that too many people are miserable because of the belief that their problems are the result of the “conditions” they are in instead of the “decisions” they have made in their lives. I find that to be a true statement. You may disagree, and that is ok. My intent, with both the prior flooding issue as well as this one, was, and still is, to try to prod people to think of actions they can take to improve their own lives, to instill in maybe one or two minds, what I firmly believe to be true. That is the fact that EVERY one of us is the master of our own universe, and each of us has within us the ability to improve our own lives… that is, if we actually make decisions and take the appropriate actions that will improve our own lives and existence. Wherever we decide to live, we can choose to let “conditions” rule our lives as if we do not have any independent ideas how to get out of those conditions we don’t like. If you, and others think that whatever happens around you is always someone else’s fault and responsibility to make changes that will maybe make your own life or situation better instead of taking personal responsibility AND affirmative action on your own part to do whatever is necessary to improve your own living situation, then you will always be stuck in the mindset that someone else must do something, not you, to make your own living situation better. I simply reject that mindset and will never believe or fall for such a failure of decision making in my own life. If that type of thinking suits you, fine. I still wish you well regardless, but I cannot help but think you and others who are not happy about whatever the issues around you and your home are would just be a lot better off if you realized that you DO have the power over your own life… and make an affirmative decision to actually do something about it instead of constant complaining and hoping beyond hope that some “savior” will swoop in and fix everything for you. I don’t think my way of thinking is anything near what you refer to when you call me sarcastic, miserable, or having no couth or class. But you do you, it doesn’t affect my outlook on life because I have always been one to seek answers and then act appropriately and decisively to improve my own life rather than to beg others to do it for me. I have personally been in situations in the past where I was not happy with things where I previously lived… things that were beyond my personal control to solve. So I moved, and I look back on those experiences and I know I made the right decision for me, and I am so much happier for doing something affirmative that made my life better. If you still cannot comprehend what I am trying to say, I don’t know what else I can tell you, except I wish you a wonderful day.
Skibum says
By the way, Blindspotting, you referenced my apology in one long ago comment about the flooding issue. Yes, I apologized when you thought one of my comments suggesting someone just move was “callous and cruel”, because although I was attempting to inducing a sense of reality, I never meant to be callous or cruel to anyone so I felt an apology on my part was appropriate. That is what good people do, and I consider myself to be a good person, whether you choose to believe it or not.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Well Skibum: All I can say is good for you. You certainly did not come
off that way in your initial comment as you were the second comment on
here as Mary bet you to the punch, in fact it probably tickled your fancy
to get that comment out. Skibum you are really barking up the wrong tree,
just some of my history as I practically raised myself as grandparents had
to claim me out of my hospital nursery bed, my parents abandoned me.
Talking to someone raising themselves out of poor conditions that’s me! I put
myself through 2 college degrees paid for by myself, worked from the age
of 13 and still gave my grandparents my miniscule paycheck to help them,
bought and sold homes that I made great profits on, raised a family with a
sick spouse, and I’m still standing, but the one thing that separates me from
you is that I was and always will be an advocste for those less fortunate because
I know how it feels to be cheated out of a decent quality of life.No flooded victims or
airport people are waiting for handouts here, all they want is a decent quality
of life that our local officials (county/city) due to poor decisions for their own
special interest have denied them of. “We the People” have the right to have
the government protect our property and ensure our security as Thomas Paine
said in Common Sense. Government is here to serve the people and to be
responsive to their needs. We see you are a pilot but never addressed the 9/11
comment I made which represents a failure of government to protect the
people. This we find quite stunning. Good Bye and God Bless we shall
continue to fight for what we call our rights and not your version of “decisions”
based on “conditions”.
Kendall says
AMEN. Do I think Sieger and Salinas acted like jerks? Absolutely. The taxpayers pay their salaries and they need to learn to show respect and decorum.
However, these people bought/built homes knowing the airport was a neighbor. With that comes noise. They need to change their living situation if they don’t like what they purchased.
Praying for Peace says
Skibum-The problem is NOT the airport. It is the relentless circling and “buzzing” (as one terrorized family recently described it) of the HUNDREDS of daily training school aircraft that constantly circle over Palm Coast, Bunnell, and Flagler County. The Flagler County Board of County Commissioners , for years, have not listened to the valid concerns from local residents begging for relief from thousands of violations to “Fly Friendly” Guidelines, unhealthy deibels of excessive noise, pollution from over 720 pounds of lead each year, lack of an Airport Advisory Committee, inadequate and antiquated Rules and Regulations based on 2008 statistics, and a condescending Airport Director that lies to the Commision on the record. There is NO benefit to Palm Coast from these flight schools. They send training students to circle our homes from 7 am to after midnight, 7 days a week. Local pilots take a back seat to these for profit flight schools that charge hundreds of thousands of dollars to “international” trainees from countries that can afford to build their own training facilities. Why should We the People have our Rights to Peace and Prosperity stolen by the greed of those that stand to profit from these flight schools? It is not the County or residents that benefit. Without grants (which could be used for necessary transportation needs) the airport operates at a loss. (Huge salaries and poor management?) This situation is a potential disaster for the County, in many ways. Despite what Roy Sieger falsely claims, the FCBOCC has the authority to BAN excessive touch and go maneuvers by simply updating and amending the Airport Rules and Regulations that are over 16 years old. A lot has changed in 16 years; the population of Palm Coast has nearly doubled, we now know the dangers of lead to our health and the health of our children, that excessive nuisance noise has a debilitating negative effect on our quality of life, and common sense tells us that the odds of a catastrophic crash from one small student pilot mistake are too high to gamble with over a densely populated city like Palm Coast. “Just move” is an ignorant statement, but if the County is held to account, they may be purchasing hundreds of homes since there are no avigation rights, safe altitudes 500 feet over homes cannot be maintained, and inverse condemnation from the serious decreased value of our properties is a valid argument.
mary rose says
We are dealing with the same issues in Cottonwood AZ. Private university Embry-Riddle made the business decision to accept more students then they could accommodate out of their base in Prescott AZ (an hour’s drive away). We are being bombarded with non-stop repetitive flight training not just over the residents, but noise sensitive areas of Tuzigoot National Monument, Verde River and Dead Horse State Park which has eagles. Multiple complaints just ignored. There are alternate airports that are not near populated areas. Private University Embry Riddle has a huge endowment and can well afford to build their own training runway away from the residents. They use leaded aviation fuel that the EPA has determined to be a health risk. Just to clarify, I do not live next to the airport, we did our research but the flight pattern was changed after by non elected airport commissioners from the next town.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Mary Rose: you are absolutely right Mary, the flight schools have more
than enough money to build their own airport and runways over non-
populated areas and wilidlife corridors that are noise sensitive. There are
absolutely no reasons to practice otherwise than officials lining their
own pockets with their own special interest/gains.
Damion says
I 100% agree. Spot on comment. “The problem is NOT the airport. It is the relentless circling and “buzzing” (as one terrorized family recently described it) of the HUNDREDS of daily training school aircraft that constantly circle over Palm Coast, Bunnell, and Flagler County.” I have a number of screenshots showing aircraft just buzzing and circling around my section. Why can’t they just pass over and circle and buzz over the ocean or over the large reserve’s? I would just like evenings of peace. Can those who buzz and circle after 10pm be heald accountable?
Skibum says
I understand you don’t like the flight schools using the airport or flying overhead. Never mind the plain fact that, despite your fear of a potential aviation accident involving one of the student pilots, the last plane crash that I can recall here in Palm Coast was years ago when a single engine private plane ran out of fuel in attempting to land at the airport and impacted a house near the airport. That plane was not piloted by a student pilot, nor did it have any affiliation with any flight school to my knowledge. Your comment seems to imply that you will settle for nothing less than a complete reversal of the flight schools ability to utilize our local airport, and probably some very draconian exclusionary zone that would keep all of those planes out of the airspace above Palm Coast. Well, good luck with your wish… I hope you are not willing to hold your breath until something that fairytalish came to pass, because I do not foresee a decrease in flight operations at our airport in the future. I do foresee more homes being built in areas near the airport, anywhere that has open land ripe for development, and I’m quite sure some people will move into the new homes, and then subsequently start complaining about airport noise. You don’t have to be Carnac The Magnificent to see that coming. Again, I say, it is up to individuals to make the right decisions that will enable them to live happily and peacefully. Maybe near an airport is not that place. As for me, I live not far from Matanzas High School, I enjoy sitting out on my lanai by the pool, and we watch both private and commercial aircraft fly overhead (way up) many times a day. You can barely hear most of them, they are not a bother to us, and I consider the marvel of aviation one of our most interesting and amazing technological achievements that mankind has ever come up with. If aviation is not your cup of tea, that’s ok, but I think it is foolish to continue to live in an area where we have so much aviation traffic, aviation schools, and now with this new aviation company just signing the real estate paperwork to build a brand new plane manufacturing company adjacent to Daytona airport, you can expect to see in the not to distant future even more flights as they test their new, all-electric planes that will be regional commuter aircraft. And all of these new planes will need MORE pilots, which will involve MORE flight training. And our airport, whether people want it or not, will be part of that flight training, you can be sure of that. Make of this what you will. YOU have the power over your own life, and where you choose to live. Have a great day.
Retired says
All I can say is Karma like death comes for us all. One day you will run across something that just ruins your life. Something that takes your peace, your traquility from something you have worked so hard for. Your little slice of heaven. Your retirement. And then you will wonder why no one sees you side or cares to help stop it. Karma is my friend and she will get you one day.
John Bertolacci says
I believe that the airport must submit an update noise contour map to the FAA, required by FAR 150. The regulation was mandated by Congress early in the 1970’s to address airport noise and individual aircraft noise certification.
I the past, none of this noise data for the map by actual noise measuring but was supplied by the FAA based on the type of aircraft, number of arrivals/departures and assume flight paths for each.
Very subjective at the least.
If someone wants to challenge the noise problem, the airport noise report/noise map is the pace to start.
The airport FAR150 submittal is a public record and scan be obtained directly from the FAA.
From the map, one can see the airport assume flight tack, type one aircraft and if agrees with the homeowners observations.
John Bertolacci says
https://duluthairport.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/DLH-Part-150-Project-PAC-1-Presentation_reduced.pdf
This is how our airport should have been complying with FAR 150
DlH is a much bigger airport but the process applies to all airport.
It explains the whole process including community input
Deborah Coffey says
We live in Toscana on Old Kings Rd. The noise, the pollution, and the low height at which the aircraft fly are certainly annoying. But, what we really worry about is one of those planes crashing into our living room. Do you know that students are taught to stall their engines? Shouldn’t those kind of practices be held over the ocean?
https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/small-plane-crashes-into-homes-in-gaithersburg-usa
pete says
Did you not know the airport was there when you bought you house.
Celia Pugliese says
The airport is nit the probe but the schools learning on it touch and goes over peoples homes is the problem.
The schools were nit there till mod 2000’s and getting more coming, arrogant and vindictive
Steve says
The schools have been there for over 50 years. I flew touch and goes at Flagler when I was training 35 years ago. It was a remote airport with very little built in the area surrounding it. A great place for training. In response to a previous commenter, no, students don’t “stall” their engines, they reduce to idle to practice landings that way, it’s very quiet in fact when they practice those maneuvers, and it’s a maneuver to improve safety, quite the opposite of what was implied. I’m not sure what the solution would be to the noise, this might be stating the obvious, but a homeownerchose to build or buy a home around an airport that was built for military training in the 1940’s, it’s been there since before you were born I assume, since your hearing is so sensitive, and it’s certainly been there long before the homes were built. Just as if one bought on noisy A1A, or near a highway, they chose to buy there, no one forced it on them. Maybe in the future, electric engines will replace the gas powered ones and it will become more quiet.
Skibum says
You are so right, Steve. And I was wondering after reading your comment, how long Embry Riddle University and their flight training school in Daytona Beach has been in business – so I googled it and was surprised to learn that it was founded way back in 1926!
Celia Pugliese says
Steve not in the amount of worldwide students training “touch and goes” that we endure today and more coming here as Daytona have restricted ERU practices there over increased commercial passenger aircraft conflicting with them. Palmcoasters and even those in Bunnell intentionally targeted over their homes like this Bunnell/Daytona North couple and since 2016 their pleads in minute 2.40.40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WKHWGh2dEA What gives the worldwide ERU pilots the right to harass these residents? We have rights as well in spite evidence of callousness of some here like you Nikki. Exactly like affected resident Randy describes is just terrorism and lets do not forget it. If this issue not resolved now, will get much works with the expansion of schools in ERU Daytona and others around to practice touch and goes over us. And Andy Dance laughing all the way minute 2.58.11 after above residents pleads in this 10/21/24 FCBOCC in different issues.
Skibum says
Correction needed: The flight school students are not “taught to stall their engines” as you stated. Rather, they are taught how to recover from a stall that occurs, and that is but one of many, many types of emergencies that student pilots need to learn if they are ever to achieve a pilot’s license. If you are worried about the very slim possibility that a plane might someday come crashing through the roof of your house, you had better hope that ALL pilots up in the air are extremely competent at identifying the signs of an impending stall before it even happens, and how to avoid going into a stall in the first place, and if they do, how to safely get out of an aerodynamic stall. That is exactly what student pilot training is all about, not just merely getting into a plane and flying with an instructor from airport to airport for sightseeing, as some would believe. All such stall avoidance and recovery training are done way, way up in the air where it is safe to do so, because even without an engine running, a plane can safely glide for miles with no problem as long as the plane is many thousands of feet up in the air. I know because I have done it. The very first time my instructor turned off the engine of the plane I was flying in order to demonstrate a stall maneuver, I was terrified, but soon learned this lesson. Learning to safely fly a plane is akin to learning all of the important safety lessons one needs to safely drive an automobile. We wouldn’t want drivers to simply be handed the keys to cars and just tell them to go out and figure things out for themselves would we? The same applies to learning to fly. And one other thing… we may have the benefit of being right on the coast, but it isn’t necessary or even desirable to teach every pilot ONLY to do certain things over water, as if that is the only safe place to practice. The entire United States, except for the east coast and west coast, is over land, so how could the vast majority of flight schools in this country ever convince student pilots it is safe to practice and learn many safety procedures unless the students were taken to one of the coasts or over large bodies of water, That would be ridiculous, unnecessary, and would contradict all of the safety training pilots receive. It would be like telling new teenage drivers the only safe place for them to ever drive are vacant parking lots. Flying a plane is a whole lot safer than driving or riding in a car, period. That is in large part to the very intensive, structured training that is required in order for student pilots to become proficient enough to satisfy the stringent requirements for a pilot’s license. If drivers were ever required to be as competent and receive as much driver training and practice before getting a driver’s license, we would have MUCH safer roadways here on the ground!
Backslapping Commission says
A new wrinkle in the SIEGER EXECUTIVE AIRPORT SCANDAL of
which the FCBOCC has even a bigger headache is the recent mind-blowing
revelation of privately owned tanker trucks and trailers on the airport property
that are not being maintained or contained, this is from a very reliable source ,that
the fleet currently has tens of thousands of gallons of unsecured and improperly
stored diesel and aviation fuel which is currently leaking into the ground. Apparently
Sieger is fully aware of the situation and nothing is being done as an environmental
contamination event continues to unfold, yet another sad example of leadership
being non existed in this county , Sieger and Petito should both be fired.
Cj says
The airport has been there longer then most of the residents and the homes. You knew it was there before you bought your homes. Sorry, but it’s not going away, deal with it or move.
That’s is just the harsh reality.
Saveyourworthlesscomment says
This is the type of comment humans make when they are blind to community issues.
Celia Pugliese says
CJ and company the airport is not the problem the schools invited to operate on it are…Can you guys get it? Or maybe you are some of those leasing your small aircraft to the schools Uber Style, profiteering from it or the nuisance arrogant pilot worldwide students ?
Jim says
I really can’t be sympathetic to those that are complaining. They bought homes near an existing airport and they have not produced any evidence that anything the airport is doing is illegal. And it appears that there are only a few people even complaining so where is the “community “ issue in the first place?
There is no doubt that Sieger has no personal skills and has shown himself to be a petty manager in the past. The county should have gotten rid of him for some of his past actions. That said I see nothing here that he’s done wrong in this situation other than continue to show his lack of communication skills with the public.
I think the county should tell those that are complaining to either find some legal grounds to stand on or either learn to live with it (or move).
There are more pressing issues that the county should be concerned about.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Jim: We do have legal grounds to stand on. The previous FCBOCC in their sneaky
secretive way back when they invited the flight schools in without proper public
address, input, or notice never obtained AVIGATION EASEMENTS. There have
been court cases won throughout the United States, look them up, one is Griggs v/s
Alleghany. I suggest everyone on here look them up and that’s what Sieger was
talking about when he gave his presentation to have deeds attached to the newer
homes being built to their property papers. The county attorney Hadeed is well
aware of this as he received a legal letter from Grey Robinson last year , he never
answered the legal letter and all the commissioners are aware, yes the county
can be sued for this but they all know that a lawsuit costs lots of money and this
is what they are holding onto the cost of the lawsuit for the taxpayers, they know
that this is wrong and they did not do their due diligence by not obtaining these
Avigation Easements and just like the flooded victims with the city, they also know
it would br expensive for those citizens to sue as they also have a case for a class
act lawsuit. So instead of trying to fix these issues and coming together with
their constituents both the county and city leaders with the exceptions of Pontieri
and Pennington who cannot get votes to make moves with these issues all live
a lie, they all know what is wrong but refuse to face these issues. As for Siegers
callous cocky behavior at this meeting goes to show what kind of poor leadership
he presents, another reason why his airport trolls follow suit as one is only good
as their leader, even most of commissioners were taken back by his snarky
demeanor that’s why people in the audience were grumbling, he purposely baits
people when they call to voice a complaint. He needs to be fired , we need a more
personable community friendly airport director, like Les Abend or a Daryl Hickman
which would alleviate s major portion of these problems and have a community
coexist with their airport. Sieger was rejected at Tampa airport following him
resigning from our airport years ago, unfortunately he was hired back by by a
past commissioner who longer resides in our county.
pete says
The airport was there long before these people were and they knew it was there when they moved in. An airport is an airport and your going to have noise. These people move here and want to change everything,go back north but don’t buy a house near the airport.
Celia Pugliese says
Pete we “these people ” have rights too and wont stop till these touch and goes and rounds and rounds stop”. So take a fly. By the way who are you behind and alias?
Lance Carroll says
Buy a home directly adjacent the airport that has been in the same location for, maybe, like a hundred years and; you will have bought a home next to an airport.
FYI: Airports are plane magnets…go figure….I guess: complain magnets too…
Praying for Peace says
Still unresolved and ignored by FCBOCC after YEARS of pleas from exasperated residents begging for a remedy. Sieger lies to them, on the record, and they take it at face value. It is time to amend the 2008 Flagler County Airport Rules and Regulations and PROHIBIT touch and go maneuvers and end the practice of flying circles over the most populated city in Flagler County and the 27th most populated in the state of Florida. Protect our safety, health, and welfare, prevent the excessive lead pollution from single-piston aircraft, and return the peace to Flagler County. Roy Sieger has cost the local residents and the County untold quality of life issues, loss of enjoyment of our homes, loss of home values, loss of peace and tranquility, and has allowed the destruction of our American Dream of home ownership. Who is going to compensate the thousands of homeowners who are suffering, never imagining they would be sold out for Flight School profits. These flight schools contribute NOTHING to Palm Coast, fly hundreds of daily circles over our city, emit 720 pounds of lead each year, fly here from Ormond, Daytona, New Smyrna, St. Augustine or right from Flagler and STEAL our Peace, Prosperity, and Rights! It is time for common sense to rule and an end to the dynasty of greed and ignoring the voice and rights of the residents!
Erod says
Siegler, told the residents affected by the constant bombardment of airplane noise “HEY YOU BOUGHT A HOUSE NEAR AN AIRPORT, WE DIDN’T BUILD AN AIRPORT NEAR YOUR HOUSE.” In other words LET THEM EAT CAKE, WITH CAKE BEING A EUPHEMISM FOR HUMAN EXCREMENT.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Erod: unfortunately this is where many residents and homeowners
are at present with both past county and city and a few still
present lingering officials. They ruined the whole vibe of our city
with their rapid irresponsible poorly planned overgrowth without
taking into account the health, safety and welfare of their citizens.
Our once beautiful flora and fauna are almost to the point of no
return, all they care about are the gated communities that most
of them live in, they are only interested in themselves and special
interest and anyway they can raise our taxes, utilities, etc. You
are right in what you say and it’s the hell with the rest of us. Some
commissioners and city council people arrogantly laugh in citizens
faces while they are speaking at these meetings and you wonder
why citizens get upset. By the way the laughing is a sign of nervousness
cause they know that they are full of excrement themselves.
RobdaSlob says
All the Harley’s rolling down A1A make too much noise – can we stop them too?
Mike says
Yes , apparently no noise enforcement for trucks and motorcycles using illegal pipes and playing outrageously loud music. Not all but enough to ruin a quiet Sunday morning. ☮️
Celia Pugliese says
The Harleys in A1A do not rave their engines 24-7 and 365 days a year and over our heads. Another no name useless critique troll.
Darlene S. says
Celia- Exactly. Motorcycles do not race hundreds of circles around homes less than 100 feet away or burn leaded fuel, as training flights at Flagler Airport do constantly, every single day. In addition, most bikers respect their neighbors and ride quietly in noise sensitive areas.
John Bertolacci says
Robdasloth
I mov ed the discussion to Nextdoor
Still testing positive after 13 days.
BLINDSPOTTING says
John: You will not get anywhere on ND, Flagler Live is much more fair,
honest and inclusive to all its patrons whereas ND we find will randomly
delete and remove comments if it doesn’t fit their cup of tea , we were told
not to patronize that site years ago as there exist many haters on that site
who have demeaned ,mocked and ridiculed residents who have been greatly
affected by the flight school planes and they let those people slide, also
they don’t fact check like Pierre does, you can be sure that Pierre will be fair
to all his readers and have a good balance of intelligent comments. Please stay
on here we are learning alot from your expertise.
John Bertolacci says
I precipitate your comments. Thank you.
But this to Nikki. When I turned on my IPhone, I had a pop up from here and when I tried to respond, I went into never- never land.
But want state, that once a person obtains a pilots license, it is a self regulating industry. There are no FAA person hiding behind a billboard it catch if we violate one the FAA rules.
The only way the FAA knows about an infraction, by private citizens posting their website.
There are a lot of bad pilots out there, I call them hotdogs. Fortunately they are a small percentage but do the must harm. To our industry. I wasn’t a good pilot either, I put my family in jeopardy twice due stretching fuel and flying in poor visual conditions. Never a barnstormer.
When someone reports that an airplane flew 300 ‘ over their house, I would believe to be true. He should report on the FAA website. Reporting to the local authorities or the airport may not get it to the FAA. Even noise observation. Note, I didn’t use the word complaint.
The public is the watch dog for these bad actors.i hope these flying schools are teaching discipline as part of their training.
As for Nikki, inappropriate that she uses her full name when she post.
On a lighter note, I finally test negative for Covid after 15 day. And everyone out, once have fevers, take the Covid test, they free from the government, and if positive, get precautions for Paxlovid as soon as possible. I consider it as a wonder drug. You may have drag your self into a minor emergency clinic but well worth it
Karl says
I’ve mentioned about 6 yrs ago that the airports expanding of the runways, in order to bring longer long haul flights by being able to take off with more fuel, would increase flights. And yes, more Jets. I’ve seen a Monmouth county NJ airport got from a few piston driven planes a day to dozens of private Jets a day over about a 25 yr span. Anyway, these few people that are complaining should have gave their home purchase a little thought. And I’m sure the county will make a nice profit from the airport, especially with fuel sales any hanger fees.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Karl: Sieger reports that a 747 can get in but can’t get out, Keep in mind
that this a small doughnut hole airport in the middle of PC, those other
areas have larger infrastructure that is not weak and crumbling like ours
and more airspace, I spoke with an aviation attorney from JAX who
took a look at our airport from a app, he said that there are too many
planes on the runway for the size of this airport and they should not
be conducting touch and goes as we do not have the infrastructure
not the airspace. The touch and goes from the flight schools need to be
stopped, jets that fly OUT once in a while and fly in and don’t
circle hundreds of times over our homes, businesses, school, hospital,
senior center, dodge dealership, all are complaing. This noise complaint
portal was not advertised and was kept yet another secret on purpose like all
the other sneaky dealings, I’m sure we would have much more also why 574
complaints still under investigation, and who make the decision of the unfounded
complaints is Roy Sieger who is also the ombudsman another sneaky conflict of
interest that’s why this is all lies!
John Stove says
Beyond ludicrous….you buy next to an Airport and THEN complain about the noise?
What is wrong with you? If you truly value the solitude and quiet then don’t buy next to an active Airport, Highway, Rail Road tracks, shopping center, quarry, factory, etc etc etc
When looking at homes, its always location, location, location
Celia Pugliese says
When bought house was an airport not a school!
Skibum says
I’m sorry Celia, but you are really confused. It is and always has been an airport, NOT a school. Just because it has a landing strip that ANY pilot, anywhere can use to land or take off, which includes Embry Riddle students as well as others, doesn’t magically turn an airport into some form of school. Look around you… Palm Coast is growing with much more traffic on our roads, more home developments, increased businesses, and somehow, incredibly actually, you think the airport should be prohibited from that same trend? I say again, INCREDIBLE nonsense. Sorry, but that is exactly what it is. I would venture to say the local residential street you happen to live on is busier nowadays. Are you next going to complain to the local authorities and try to get some type of restrictions put on your residential area to keep anyone from driving on the streets in your area unless they reside there? I know a dose of reality hurts, but sometimes it is necessary, and I think the ones who are complaining about the flight schools using the airport for exactly what it was built for, is a waste of breath, especially when a brand new airplane manufacturer is going to be building new electric planes at the airport in Daytona, and those new planes, during testing and most likely for pilot training and maybe even commercial commuter operations, could be added to the daily flights coming and going from our airport, so the horizon for airport traffic is on the rise, NOT decline. Anyone who shudders to think about the added airplane traffic might want to think about how that is inevitably going to affect you if you already don’t like what is happening at our airport currently, because, I could be wrong, but just wanting the flight school traffic to go away is a lost cause in my opinion.
c says
“The county from June 3 to Oct 2 activated web portal enabling users to submit complaints. ”
Funny, I read the Palm Coast Observer and FlaglerLive regularly, and I do not ever recall seeing any kind of public notices regarding a ‘complaints’ website opening? Was there a notice?
Living in the Z-section next-door to the airport, I would certainly have participated.
FlaglerLive says
We were never informed of such a portal, or asked to inform the public about it.
Celia Pugliese says
They kept is as tight as the could and opened in a X portal on top they do not release the actual complaints to the public…they cherry picked and distorted…what about a FOIA request to see the actual 5,000 complaints?
Randy Bentwick says
It’s like buying a house next to a sewage plant then complaining about the smell. What did you expect? If you don’t like the airport move.
Ken says
If you don’t like the noise and what comes with airports being around, then you should have never moved by one! STOP COMPLAINING!!
John Bertolacci says
I am sorry, but this wrong. Yes most airports were there first. Congress mandated the FAA to write new regulations covering individual noise aircraft standards and airport noise in the early 70’
The airport standards set specific limit on airport noise for hospitals, schools, residential area and commercial area.
Back then, the airport had to buy residential houses and tear down. Retrofitting offers to with new windows etc. Other areas, the plight paths had to be modified to get schools and hospitals within limit.
Since the the 70’s , they where always, does not apply anymore by an act of Congress and the FAA.
Please do not take this as demeaning. It not to be that .
I made my living in general aviation, but airport need to take their responsibility seriously.
BLINDSPOTTING says
John Bertolacci: Thank you John, it’s about time someone with an
aviation background came on here with viable information and not the
SOS remarks about what came first the chicken or egg ancient hx.time
zone arguments. That argument is moot and does not mean that
these airports are given a pass to not take responsibility to protect
the welfare of their citizens and communities. If you read 80% of
the comments for the airport they all say the same since they have
nothing else. This county does not want to take responsiblities that
they owe to their constituents, never any noise studies, no EPA studies,
no noise compatibility program, they just want to stuff their pockets
with overdevelopment upon weaken poor infrastructure, poor
city/county planning, poor traffic control conditions as they advertise
the beauty of PC on websites with beaches hooked up to PC to draw
more people here instead of fixing the problems.We don’t see anymore
wildlife in our area where once to to be deer, turkeys, red tailed hawks.
As for Andy Dance so lovingly looking at Sieger as Sieger spewed his
arrogant remarks at the meeting to bait the audience only for Dance
to snap at the audience when the audience was disgrunted says it all!
Dance the same guy who finally decides to come up with a tree ordinance
as most of our trees are already gone and lost to developers, Dance in
office for 4 years suddenly decides this before his re election as he poses
with Afin in his campaigning, blatant arrogance to the public. And yes
Dance, PE is a FLIGHT SCHOOL MILL , LLC means limited liability ,
pulls in 182 million dollars annually and has several flight school mills
under them: Daytona Aircraft Leasing, LLC, Dolphin Leasing LLC,
Alpha Leasing LLC and Bravo Leasing LLC maybe even more. If a tragedy
were to happen and the odds are that it will as over 170 thousand touch
and go flights by unseasoned student pilots over our commumities annually
there is no liability insurance for punitive damages and the county will be
sued because they all know and have done nothing.
RobdaSlob says
John-
I will take the liberty to add a little clarification on some of your points.
14 CFR part 150. Airports are NOT required to comply with this section. However, if an airport (or more accurately the entity that owns the airport) wants to develop an Airport Noise Exposure Map, it must be conducted in accordance with part 150. Expect the county (more accurately property tax payers) to have to pony up 500K or more to have one developed.
You cite Griggs v Allegheny. However, that was adjudicated in 1962, its applicability has lost some relevance due to legislative changes. Congress has passed a number of acts since 1962 that have strengthened the FAA’s role in governance of airport operations and how noise data plays into those decisions.
First and most significantly in 1979 the Aviation Safety and Noise Abatement Act which established part 150. In addition to setting standardized way to measuring noise impacts from airports it established a DNL of 65 dB as the threshold for when noise becomes an annoyance. Keep in mind that “65 dB” threshold as determined by methods in part 150 is an average noise measurement not a single event and the process has to take into account the local community noise. (Idling Harley is typically 90 dB, ERAU 172 is at 70 dB at takeoff, if someone wants a benchmark. Keep in mind those are transient events that contribute to the average but do not set the average. They are in turn offset by in between the events when it is “quieter”). Without a part 150 noise compatibility map the county is unable to obtain Federal Funds to mitigate noise. E.g. some communities have obtain funds for homes exposed to have double pain windows or air conditioners. Depending on where people live they likely are not at that 65 dB level. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t still bother them. Indeed it has been found through studies that our tolerance for noise is lowering as the years go by and noise annoyance standard as low as 50 dB has been suggested to the FAA. Keep in mind the FAA’s number 1 priority is safety so I don’t foresee them making any rapid changes to that standard, particularly when their office of environment is focussed on emissions and sustainable aviation fuel.
Regardless, a noise compatibility map does not authorize the County to limit operations. That’s because the second significant piece of legislation is the Airport Noise and Capacity Act of 1990. This act resulted in 14 CFR part 161 which allows the FAA to approve operations to abate noise. However, part 161 was mainly targeting allowing the FAA to approve airports to ban Stage 3 jets, while relevant there are not too many Stage 3 jets left in service, those that I know of are air ambulances and are exempt from noise restrictions.). To bar other types of limitations there are strict protocols that must be followed – the first and foremost is operators have to agree to it.
Both of these Acts have been successful in reducing the number of Americans exposed to harmful noise. In a Congressional Research report published 2021 it is noted that there has been a reduction of individuals exposed to harmful noise from airport from 7 million to less than a half million. Relative to airports like Flagler Executive what the research has found to be successful is using a noise compatibility map to inform decisions on what should be approved to build and where, to obtain federal funds to help mitigate noise for those under its pathways, adjust approach and departure routing to expose as few as possible, and voluntary noise abatement procedures. This combination of actions results in a balanced solution.
Since I drank too much caffeine today, my chores are complete, and the comments have me energized….
History of airport. The Navy built FIN as a training base during WWII. So yes it doesn’t seem like it would be too hard to connect the dots that it was built for training and it is still used for training and why does that suprise anyone. But several commenters in their own eclectic way point out that this point is moot. And as much as I hate to say it I think they are right. As the owners of Flagler Executive the County is obligated to protect individuals from the harm it could cause. To me it is as simple as strict liability. A smarter person could weave the legal precedents to show how that is the case but it comes down if your tiger bites me it is your property and your problem. Not claiming you were negligent, but your property harmed me. A cynical individuals might think that commissioners with strong ties to developers will avoid having the data the noise study would provide and therefore not have it play into their decisions on what can be built where. I suspect it is more a case of they don’t feel it will cost them their job so they don’t care.
Relative to safety concerns of flight schools. First this is deflecting the issue. The issue is someone is aggravated by noise. Second of all it is not backed by data. Certainly we have all seen pictures of aircraft crashed and people killed and it is fair to ask the question. But the NTSB safety data shows a significant improvement in general aviation safety and flight schools in particular. Furthermore, the major school in play around Flagler is Embry-Riddle, whose commitment to safety is beyond reproach. Safety in aviation is risk management. I.e. if you don’t ever want to die in a car crash don’t drive/ride in cars or you can chose to mitigate the risk by being trained to drive, keeping a well maintained vehicle, etc.
Relative to student pilots not following noise abatement procedures. The flight schools are not out there to be defiant. Embry-Riddle for example has a flight operations handbook that requires a level of professionalism – not the least of which is adherence to all published noise abatement procedures – specifically citing Flagler, DeLand and a number of other local airports. It is not comfortable getting called into the Dean’s office to explain yourself for not following the code of conduct….ask me how I know.
If you made this far thank you.
Mary says
Embry-Riddle out of Prescott AZ violates the noise abatement policy every single day.
They ignore FAA advisory 91-36D by sending their student pilots to fly thousand of operations over noise sensitive areas. What kind of ethics does Embry-Riddle have by training their pilots to just ignore an FAA advisory because “they can”
RobdaSlob says
Mary I am quite familiar with Cottonwood, Prescott (PrescItt) and surrounding area. I travel there regularly to visit family. The parallels are quite similar to Flagler / Volusia where in their case uncontrolled migration of Californians has resulted in premanent damage to unspoiled natural lands and resulting conflict of well entrenched entities (flight schools that once chose to be there due to its isolation, wildlife, Native American cultural items, etc).
AC 91-36D advises to fly 2,000 above ground level of noise sensitive areas. Remember that this FAA guidance is just advisory not mandatory. Pilots are expected to put safety first – so if weather is forcing them lower to remain safe they should chose to go lower.
Cottonwood has a very proactive noise mitigation program – if I recall it correctly they post it on both their airport website and city. The airport is well signed and the information freely available to the pilot community.
My unsolcited advise to you is to subscribe to any number of online flight tracking tools and collect the data that shows they are violating the guidance and provide it to the Dean in Prescott. You may find through that exercise your eagle eye measurement of 2,000 feet is not the same as what the radar is showing. Or you may find it confirms what you believed. If it does I would take it to the Dean of ERAU and ask for a dialogue on what are they doing. If there is a rogue student or instructor they certainly aren’t going to tell on themselves.
But I will caution you. Just simply demanding flight schools go away is about as effective as demanding all the Yankees go back north (or in their case Californians go back west).
Mary says
Next time you are in Cottonwood AZ please travel to Clarkdale to see the endless circles over the Tuzigoot National Monument. Embry-Riddle Prescott sends their students here to conduct thousands of flight operations. They are not flying low for safety reasons, they are flying low so they can make make more money on accepting more students. I use ADS-B exchange for altitude info, no one is using “eagle Eye” in 2024! The Dean of ERAU sends his underlings to tell us that they can do what they want. Again, Embry-Riddle is instructing their students to ignore AC 91-36D multiple times a day by conducting repetitive flight maneuvers, and to ignore noise abatement.
John Bertolacci says
I have Covid so I am also wired.
I am not against airport or general aviation. My career was working for small aircraft manufacturers. I was responsible for development and FAA flight test certifications. My group wrote the TYPE DATA sheet, analyzed all the flight tests data and completed the Type Inspection Reports. I started out in 1964 working in Lack Haven and later transferred to Lakeland Fl.
When FAR 150 was first proposed in the early 70’s,, I was handed a B&K sound level and was told, you are in charged.
Initial, the industry was in a pandemic. The flight noise test was to be conducted at maximum continuous power at 1000’. That most of our twin would have be re-engineering with geared engines. Continental was working on one that the gear box came off of the valve drive shaft. We had a set on one our Azects.
We immediately started test all our models ,as well as Cessna, Vero Etc. We were truly in the panic mode. The whole GA industry.
During this period, there were a lot meeting in Wichita, with industry and the FAA to determine how to comply.
Fortunately, when the final rule was approved, someone within the FAA made a significant change. The MCP was replace with new rating that only applied to noise. It was our choosing, but it had to backed up by climb chart. FAR 23 was not affect, all the climb, based on TOP & MCP were unchanged. We still some model had to reduce prop diameter, or Rated RPM. The Q-tip propeller one attempt. That turned out to improve efficiency, but with no noise reduction. The smaller aircraft had to add mufflers or improve the existing ones.
Sorry, my covid is in high gear now.
The industry got through it. With my company’s B&K sound level meter, a level recorder and tape recorder, we were able test, analyze and submit substantiation reports to the FAA for all the Lock Haven, Lackland and one Vero Beach that were in production before I left Piper 1980.
Later, at Fairchild Aircraft (SAT), I did the same for the Metro series. There, I was Flight Analysis and Noise DER, FAR 23.
That is my Covid story.
Today I went on the county airport website. Yes I am not finished, I scanned thru their 268 page document about the airport and projected growth. It was mine boggling. Our airport can not support these numbers. Our airport is residentially bound.
The city and the county had destroyed our airport years ago.
Backslapping Commission says
John Bertolacci: Thank you John for your well educated and well stated
conclusion however we know that the county and the city will never admit
that they destroyed our airport. But the good news is that they cannot
contradict your expertise and once again in the words of the great Jane
Gentile Youd that continue to echo in the county chamber halls
THEY SHOULD ALL BE FIRRRRRRED!
RobdaSlob says
John, you and I have walked many the same paths – I took a mid-career break for a tour through the Feds, before returning to the real world. And while I’m still at it, I’m guessing by some of what you cited and knowing what ARACs you were on that you are spending more time away from it than in it.
I don’t flash my noise credentials too often – I don’t really want to be labeled as part of the noise mafia.
I agree with you the county has failed to manage this issue and until they are forced to do so it will remain a problem.
Skibum says
RobdaSlob, thank you for your very comprehensive and FACT based comment. I enjoyed reading it, although others may not be looking for facts as much as they are interested in those who have similar “feelings” about the issue as theirs. As we all know, feelings are subjective and up for interpretation but facts are indisputable. Again, thanks for taking the time to educate us.
Retired says
Why is the first thing out of everyones mouth is to say move. I like where I live if it was not for the jerks from the flight schools circling my house day and night. I live in Daytona North and apparently we dont count in the precious voluntary flight restrictions for Palm Coast of no flying after 10 pm and before 7 am. The first plane of the day was at 6:50 am and was Embry Riddles 818. The article was excellent on the dismissance of the people but once again left out Bunnell. Just because we are a poor community we just have to deal with it, its not like we pay taxes or anything…Acording to Segier its only going to get worse for us because of the congestion at Daytona. Soo your will hear other complaints from the small airports cause thats where they are sending the traffic. As far as a small group there is no advertising for these things and I stumbled across the meeting on another site. If mre people knew more would show. NOT EVERYONE IS ON SOCIAL MEDIA!!!
Praying for Peace says
The “Noise Abatement Portal” was not advertised anywhere, and very few people even knew about it. Others recognized it as another smoke and mirrors by Sieger, who ignores every Regulation violation and dismisses each valid complaint as “unfounded”. Truly unbelievable that greed and profit are more important to these people than the quality of life of tens of thousands of residents from Bunnell, Palm Coast, Flagler Beach, Ormond, and Daytona.
Tony says
The people complaining knowingly bought a house near an airport. This is no different than living next to a fire station. It is not something new, the facility was there before you.
Celia Pugliese says
Looks like all these arrogant trolls are here based on their ties to airport schools benefits but hiding behind aliases.
Skibum says
Another false assumption. I do not agree with your point of view, but your assertion that I have any ties at all to some airport flight school is FALSE. I am not a licensed pilot, although I did take and complete a flight training ground school class in high school in L.A. and I have flown a small plane with my teacher way back in the day. My “alias” as you like to call it is simply my preference when online on any platform… for privacy purposes, that is all, since I am a retired law enforcement officer. I don’t make spurious accusations or call people names when commenting, but like you, I have my viewpoints which are just as valid as yours are, whether or not we happen to agree on an issue. I’m sure you are a very nice person, and people should be able to disagree on issues of the day without devolving into name calling. It surprises me that you would believe that anyone who happens to not agree with your opinion is an “arrogant troll”. Well, if that is your opinion of individuals who you have never even met, then I feel sorry that you have such an poor opinion of others who may just be a neighbor.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Celia Pugliese: I don’t think that Skibum is presenting a total picture of his authentic
self, and could be anyone . But who cares who he is! If he’s a cop God Bless him.
The bigger picture here is that he is NOT a active pilot, NEVER was an active pilot
but had an experience flying when he was a teen which does not make him
an expert in the field of aviation like John Bertolacci whose lifetime career was
in aviation. Notice that he agrees and acknowledges Robdaslob and does not even
acknowledge Mr. Bertolacci’s expertise, in fact he stays very far away from it, he
avoids Mr.Bartolacci because he is really intimated by the range and depth of his
knowledge of aviation .Notice that he also avoids my 9/11 comment. Not that I do not
respect Robadslob’s expertise, I do, but student handbooks do nothing when you get a
slap on the wrist, we need NOISE ABATE THAT IS NOT VOLUNTARY, violations
need to be given out to the violators like on our highways when one does not follow the
rules and regulations, and he is wrong about the Griggs and Alleghany lawsuit as there
are numerous of other lawsuits won by Supreme and Federal courtavigation cases
throughout the country that followed that same lawsuit. Also can it be that the county
as well as the city know they have failed their residents and with this in mind now they
have to cough it up and maybe as Robaslob claims foot the bill of a noise study because
without it if a tragedy should occur they all will be sued and that lawsuit will be massive.
This is now what they get for their past negligence and trying to get away cheap from
the beginning when they should have done the right thing to begin with.
Jay Tomm says
County airport run by the FAA…..Complain to the FAA. And it’s the persons choice to buy a house near an airport. The airport was there before the houses.
Using Common Sense says
Jay Tomm- You are incorrect, Flagler Airport is run by the Flagler County Board of Commissioners, who have the authority to amend the 2008 Airport Rules and Regulations at any time. The homes were here well before the flight schools were invited in and allowed to destroy the peace and tranquility for tens of thousands of residents without any avigation rights. These squadrons of training pilots circle the County hundreds of times each day, emitted unsafe decibels of noise and lead, and threatening the health, safety, and welfare of every resident. The FAA only has jurisdiction on planes in the air. Simple solution- FCBOCC amends the Airport rules to prohibit these excessive touch and go maneuvers. Let the airport be the public “Executive Airport” is was meant to be, for use by local pilots, mosquito control, the Military if needed, and executive use. Let the training schools use their billions in profits to build their own airport away from 100,000 homes, hospitals, schools, and businesses.
MichK says
Roy Sieger couldn’t direct an airport if he invented one. He has no idea what is happening at this airport. Hurricane Milton came in with mass destruction & on Friday, there were recorded touch and go flights. The excuse from Leann Pennington, ‘they were emergency crews bringing in water”. Lies! The planes were clearly marked Embry Riddle. Flying under 1,000ft over homes & lineman resorting power. Who allowed this? Roy need to be removed as ombudsman of this airport as it is a conflict of interest for him to be a Director and combat complaints. He also has stated in writing curfew is 10pm, yet every night, there are flights well past 10:45pm up until 1am. We citizens are sick of the decibel noise barriers and altitude regulations this airport continues to break. I’ve filed a formal complaint against Roy with the County, yet it will go nowhere because Pamela Wu and Heidi Petito are friends. Vote the right people in come November, Stevens is not on our side and we will gain the 3 votes to get Leann & Heidi out of their roles. I have miles of evidence & lies each has sent me as they can’t keep their stories straight
MichK says
Correction to my post Stevens IS on our side Werner is not. My apologies
Celia Pugliese says
Glad you made clear as I was scratching my head! Stevens is in our side, the residents side like Jeffery Seib is too!
Miami North says
There is a clear large gap between those who live near the airport, and those who really don’t understand the difference in noise today from what is was just a handful of years ago.
Too easy for the unaffected folks to suggest a solution to “simply” move somewhere else. Or that “the airport was there first”
I can all but guarantee if the flight paths went over the Hammock, something would be changed almost immediately.
Why is it so hard to receive support and understanding from the rest of the community?
The once peaceful U section now sounds like a war zone, and most often have planes running as early as 6am to 10-11pm at night.
MichK reporting FAA infractions daily says
By taking the noise abatement portal away from us, they think they have silenced us, but they haven’t. I am personally trying to get Roy removed as ombudsman of this airport by reporting him to the FAA & [email protected]. I write them daily as I have downloaded the Decibel app on my phone which records noise time date stamped. These planes are not supposed to hit over 65 decibels. Yet most do. Also, the curfew is 10pm. Last night 5 flights took off after 10pm, 2 were touch n go’s. It should frighten residents that students or otherwise are flying that late, under 1000ft directly over our homes. Roy, Heidi Petito & Leann Pennington ignore complaints about breaking curfew. This is imperative as we are voting. And our voices get to unseat the commissioners who continue to allow the FAA infractions. I would dare any human to research what the unleaded fuel they dump is doing to our environment. I would also dare to ask them why they haven’t done a noise study. Why is there not an airport committee and what is this grand master 2025 plan theses fools have in place. Go on the Flagler county airport site. On the left, you will see noise abatement portal. Roy shut it down by calling us, the citizens liars for submitting duplicate complaints. Imagine, living in a county where the people who pay your salary get called liars. There is no airport in this country without a noise abatement portal. Yet this criminal organization running this county acts as a dictatorship with well lined pockets from the flight schools. They are a disgrace & if I ever came face to face with any of them, they would know this voice.
RobdaSlob says
Mitch-
“These planes are not suppose to hit over 65 decibels”. Not sure where you are getting that from, there is no requirement for 65 dB.
In part 150 65 dB is used as a threshold of “annoyance” it is an average not a single event nor a requirement of “nothing may exceed”. When a light airplane is certified by the FAA the requirement for a 2500 lb airplane typically used for training would be at or around 76 or 77 dB (14 CFR Part 36). ERAU and other flight schools typically modify their airplanes to make them quieter and are typically around 70 dB at takeoff.
If you are using an app on your phone to measure noise in an attempt to declare these individuals are in violation of some perceived FAA rule I fear you are going to frustrate yourself. In addition to there is no requirement being exceeded noise measurement for the purpose you are trying to use it for must be conducted in a very prescribed manner. That is because as any audiophile will tell you acoustics are tricky things and are affected by everything from the humidity level, temperature, distance from the source, how far above sea level the measuring device is located, microphones vary, the recording device (think difference between records and CDs), and the list goes on. So both part 150 and part 36 provide an very detailed approach to how to measure noise.
Your energy would be better spent convincing the County Council to find the 500 to a million dollars required for a noise study. Maybe take your app around and sample the neighborhood and to build your case for a why a formal study would be worthwhile as opposed to why someone is rogue. Maybe combine that with a review of current zoning and growth patterns of the region. Be careful what you ask for…if a formal part 150 noise study is conducted and your home is located in an area of 65 dB or greater that is now disclosable on a sale. And thus why developers and real estate agents are going to resist you.
Robwho? says
Do your research! It is an FAA regulation, the 65db for touch n go flights. Do not bring down the citizens that deal with this daily nightmare Roy Sieger has created.
BLINDSPOTTING says
MichK: maybe Skibum and Robdaslob can explain as to why on the evening
of 10/26/24 at approximately 9:06 pm a couple of days following this article
along with a Nikki person on ND spewing false information to John
Bartolacci who they are all intimidated by, 2 ER fight schools planes performing
dangerously low touch and goes over our homes at 300 feet making several
passes that stirred up dogs barking in our community then left, both came in
from Daytona as we have aerial shots and video cameras set up, also no radar
and no ATC as it is beyond the airport hours of operation.
John Bertolacci says
Blindspotting
I am sorry, but can’t stop posting.
The vast majority of pilots are very consensus. There, unfortunately , the 1%ers that ruin for the rest.
Fortunately, flight school teach discipline.
I have seem flagrant violation.
Once at Williamsburg , at Lycombing, a Cherokee 140 taxied in . It looked like at tail dragged. Four guys got out, all look like linemen. Not only the aircraft was way over gross but the CG must have been some were in the tailcone. It must have no static stability.
Some pilots think that aircraft is like a car. You can stuff it with any thing and it is ok.
Back in lock haven, the airport manager was meeting angry citizens, two aircraft were playing cat and mouse over the river gorge of the north branch of the suqhana River. did tell you there were high tension lines across the river. Well, up river all went dark. The Cherokee six with a high tension line wrapped around the engine, out the one aileron, crushing the tail cone and dragging a about another hundred feet of wire, staggered into the Loch Haven airport. needless to say, the airport meeting didn’t go well.. this true. . We all left the engineer building to see the aircraft.
It is the 1%ers that ruin for everyone,
It not just aviation, I can give a story about bike week, six years ago. My wife was so terrified, that couldn’t even dial 911.
I know this has nothing to do with the airport, but as said, i can’t stop posting. I am 16 day since I tested positive for COVID, for all your sakes, I hope I test negative tomorrow morning.
BLINDSPOTTING says
MitchK: Robdaslop is also not accurate about the Noise Study.
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) provides funding for Part 150 studies through the Airport Improvement Program (AIP). The FAA’s share of the funding is usually between 75% and 90%, depending on the airport’s size and the level of emplacement. The FAA is authorized to fund projects, but it’s not obligated to do so. They get grants for everything else. The county and airport director needs to request an AIP grant in their grant letter
to the FAA they file each year. Sieger knows how to get millions out of the FAA forhis corporate
headquarters which as his previous Airport Advisory Committee that was disbanded
by Jerry Cameron reported that he does not need, it’s to entertain his fat cats as
always with all the previous grants with extending runwsas etc, this county and Sieger
NEVER LOOKED AT THE SAFETY AND WELFARE OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS WHILE
EXPANDING THIS AIRPORT, THEY ARE ALL LIABLE. SHAME ON THEM.
RobdaSlob says
Rob who?:
I’m curious: Here’s the link to all the FAA regulations: https://drs.faa.gov/browse/FAR/doctypeDetails
Not being judgmental – just would love to review it.
Blindspotting I am aware the FAA pays for some studies. I deal with the FAA every single day. Based on that experience, I thought the Flagler County Council would be an easier hill to climb. Maybe not. You can also get a group of homeowners together to self fund it. Several HOA’s have done so in the past.
A noise study would be a good next step for this community. But it is not a panacea so be careful what you ask for, people will be unhappy when their home is labeled as being exposed to an annoyance level of noise.
Hammock Bear says
Airport was there first before residential development. But was there anything in the original airport definition that suggests a future flight school included? That would be a defining answer to many questionable complaints.
Celia Pugliese says
What a repeating boring non sense “the airport was there first” the schools that are the problem were not. Were invited in the early 2,000 by the FCBOCC who’s chair had an airport enterprise himself. Complaints are nit questionable are reality…case is you dislike them but we don’t care either as is the result of ignorance and callousness for other peoples problems.
Hammock Bear says
One would think that the situation would be that easy to simply review the original airport and county agreement just before the airport purchased the property and include the school… It is Hardly,” boring non sense” and it should be reviewed to determine if there is any reason for either party to Bitch. Common Sense, Celia! Not a boring Troll, simply an observation from a member of the community.
Skibum says
Celia, you must have missed an earlier comment because you are wrong about the flight school not being here in our area first. Embry Riddle in Daytona, where most, if not all of the flight school students doing pilot training in our skies are flying out of, was founded in 1926. Not only was out local airport not here way back then, Palm Coast itself was not even a thought. Students learning to fly here in our local area precedes the existence of our city by about 50 years… but THEY are the ones who should go away? There has to be a better, more rational solution to the problem or the FAA or other governing body able to make those kinds of decisions will simply shake their heads and continue to blow off the community complaints. I’d ask you to consider that point if you really want airport complaints to be heard.
protonbeam says
tale as old as time. airport or busy road exists. people move near said airport or busy road. people complain about noise of the airport or road they chose to move near and want it abolished. those complainers make their poor decisions the problem of others. It’s easier to spot nuisances such as overhead power lines or freeways – my understanding is the airport has been there since WW2 having been built by the US navy. Sorry people don’t pay more attention when making one of the biggest financial decisions of their lives. And I am sure the noise is aggravating – but the airport isn’t going anywhere and there may be hijinx the county could do – it’s not going to amount to much unless they want to get sued and lose their FAA and FDOT monies. Start making substantive uneducated changes and the pro airport contingency (who is generally better organized, better funded and better educated on such matters) will also join in the fray I would suspect. Just tell those folks the truth that they are generally SOL and should literally and figuratively move on –
Celia Pugliese says
Airport okay the schools have to go buy land out and away of populated areas train build their airport tand train here…they have the funds rich Saudies, Chinese, Russians, Indus, Europeans, etc.
MichK says
For those effected and have been silenced by the closing of the noise abatement portal, here is your resource to complain of the war zone we listen to by this unmanaged airport:
https://ancir.faa.gov/ancir?id=ancir_sc_cat_item&sys_id=6149ade187a1f550b0d987b9cebb357e
Roy is our ombudsman, which is a direct conflict being the director as well. How do you complain to an ombudsman about the noise when the director doesnt care either. Here is your resource to complain about this:
You can contact the FAA’s Aviation Noise Ombudsman by email at [email protected], by voicemail at (202) 267-3521, or by mail at 800 Independence Ave., S.W., Suite 306, Washington, DC 20591 OR [email protected]
To file a formal complaint against Roy with the County: Please email (although she is worthless and a friend of Heidi’s) [email protected] AND [email protected]
They will only follow FAA regulations and be held accountable if your voice is heard.
Mary says
It makes no sense that private university Embry-Riddle with a huge endowment, and for profit flight schools, are able to continue to fly with leaded aviation gas after the EPA endangerment finding in October 2023, determining that leaded aviation fuel accounts for 70% of the lead released into the air. Can you think of any other business allowed to continue to pollute the air?
Dave says
Well you bought a home near an existing airport and now you complain. I say sell, make a few bucks as the airport is not going anywhere.
John Bertolacci says
SLIBUM
I have found ROBDASLOB post very knowledgeable. He knows the airport side of FAR 150 much better than I.
I really don’t like this site. When want respond to a post like yours, it takes me some totally different post.
And this not just you but all thr other post that use a stranger Monica. I feel if I am going to make an opinion, I want people know how is making it. Maybe it is just old age.
Skibum says
John, I agree with you that ROBDASLOB sound very knowledgeable. It lends a lot of credibility to what he says about this issue. And this will be my last comment on this subject because there are already too many of the same old repeated complaints, ad nauseum. To me at least, it seems like those who are complaining have not been able to satisfactorily substantiate to any airport or aviation oversight authority ANY legitimate violations from the flight school students using our local airport. The airport is being used as it was intended to be used for, and it appears the local residents who have an issue with the pilot training have chosen to air their complaints in the comment section of a news article instead of gathering a large segment of upset residents together to make their complaints better heard before the FAA. Maybe they have already done so individually and been blown off by the FAA because their complaints are unfounded. But they are certainly NOT going to see any resolution, even if their complaints were valid, by using the comment section of an online newspaper.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Skibum: How about giving some kudos to John Bartolacci a very well seasoned
aviation professional, perhaps you don’t like his comments where he said he
has read the 268 pages of airport documents about the projected growth and
found it mind boggling! AND THAT THE AIRPORT CANNOT SUPPORT THESE
NUMBERS SINCE IT’S RESIDENTIALLY BOUND! AND that the airport needs to
to take responsibility since airport standards set specific limits on airport noise
for HOSPITALS, SCHOOLS, RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL AREAS. I too
have read 2009 MP and the updated 2015 when runway 11/29 was being worked
on, the noise contours were then conveniently put INSIDE that runway and not OUTSIDE
in the neighboring communities, how are you suppose to measure noise outside
the communities without those noise contours. An airport should never outgrow it’s
community as this airport is overlapping community properties. It’s stunning how
you cherry pick the same old songs, you need to flip the disc already. You sound
childish with your repeated rants always blaming the residents, boy you’re really
on one big egotistical head trip, sounds to us like you’re very intimidated by us.
Thanks for the compliments and keep giving us more oxygen. Buh bye.
John Bertolacci says
Unfortunately, justifying the noise exceeds the limits over a person’s residence can be very expensive. Everyone’s smart phone is now a sound level meter. The catch is, it must recorded
Over time. I think maybe a week or more. The FAA limits in exposure over time. This can be very expensive. Your suggestion of the citizens banning together and maybe , with luck, they can find someone with the experience to rent and setup the equipment.
I enjoy all the comments, good or bad. It keeps me young
RobdaSlob says
Thanks John but my hat is tipped to you sir. I suspect you have forgotten far more than I will ever know on how to measure airplane noise.
I post anonymously so people can call me a “troll” and other names and Flaglerlive doesn’t have to worry about me chastising them for libel.
BLINDSPOTTING says
Robdaslob: We have a whole repertoire of demeaning disgusting names that we
have collected throughout the years of nasty individuals who have called citizens
in our communities who make their voices heard with the airport flight school
complaints and to be honest with you even though
I myself have not called you “troll” is not bad compared to what we have collected.
To be quite frank with you the times that I do see “troll” used are by those people
who are defending their rights against individuals who are belittling and demeaning.
It would be nice however if aviation people like yourself and John who did take the
high road where more like you guys but then again an airport is just as good as its leader
who has done nothing to maintain healthy professional behavior between the airport
community and the surrounding residents. In fact it’s quite shameful on his part and
shameful that the county commissioners do nothing to correct this egregious behavior
towards their citizens. Perhaps they all should be held “libel”.
Retired says
John I respect your knowledge. As the family from Bunnell I can tell you that Embry Riddle is alot more than 1%. Google says they have 98 planes. I have a list of every single plane along with pictures if the planes whom have terrorized us over the last 7 months, as well as the last 8 years. Its a total of 75 planes as well as about 15 from other flight schools in the last 7 months. 1% would be about 10 and as you can see its a lot more than that. We caught a plane at 425 feet a tail number of JED 141. Well below 500 ft. I consider that trespassing as well as dangerous. No landing strips here. Its a lot more than 1% that ruin it for everyone.
Gary Keller says
The airport cares little about health issues that they cause. So don’t take the battle to them. There is a very long history of airports not changing anything that they do – unless it is only in their interest. The Florida Health Department, according to their Mission, claims to do something else. The last valid year of the EPAs National Emissions Inventory (NEI) data showed Flagler at over 700 lbs. of lead emissions per year. Likely even more now. Also if the airport says that they will get a lead test performed, I believe them. Nothing to lose for them. I Don’t think any airport that has had a test performed for them have come up with any lead. It is also a fact that there are now five studies since 2011 that the children living near general aviation (GA) airports have elevated Blood Lead Levels (BLLs). The last one checked used children across the entire state of North Carolina. Put your complaints at the FHD’s doorstep and see how they respond.
Backslapping Commission says
Gary Keller: Thank you Gary for your input and expert advice, we know that you
are a respected leader and advocate in this area. We are currently educating
and looking into the lead testing of our residents especially our youngest
population of children. We are honored to hear from you and to see your
professional recommendation in this serious matter. Once again thank you
for your time and interest, you will be hearing from us in the future.
Shane says
Has anyone tried to track and perform any analytics on the aircraft. I’m new to the area and it is very annoying there is almost zero silence and you can even hear it inside the house. You can build a very small and cheap computer with off the shelf components to track the radio signals of the planes and since you are feeding data into FlightRadar24.com they give you free access. It should be rather trivial to extract the data and put it into a spreadsheet to track the flights and gauge the noise we get constantly. Please see this link for further info on building the device https://www.flightradar24.com/build-your-own. Let me know if you need help the more we get of these will help to give us a nice set of data to report against.
Shane says
Has anyone tried to measure analytics on the aircraft? It’s easy to do with a small cheap computer and a USB radio to grab the messages from each of the aircraft and then put the data into Excel to report on it. I’ve left off links as my previous post was nuked.