At the Flagler County School Board Tuesday evening Janet McDonald, the board chair, called the meeting to order, as was noted on the agenda. The Flagler Palm Coast High School Junior ROTC presented the colors, as was noted on the agenda. The National Anthem followed, as was noted on the agenda. Then Jeanine Clontz, a pastor at Flagler Beach United Methodist Church, took the mike and said: “Will you bow in prayer with me”–not a request so much as a command.
That was not on the agenda.
“Gracious and loving God, we call on you to surround all of our schools here locally and around the nation with your protection,” the pastor said, going on to pray for protection from acts of violence and bullying, with words for educators to be “filled with grace,” before she told the audience, as at a service: “You may be seated.”
There were more than a few double-takes in the commission meeting room. There hasn’t been a prayer at a school board meeting since at least as far back as 1973, when board members abandoned what had been an off-and-on custom going back to 1917–more off than on, according to a cursory review of minutes through the decades–of having one of their own say a prayer to start meetings.
The addition of the prayer on Tuesday evening’s meeting was a violation of school board rules, because it was not part of the agenda, nor had board members agreed to make it so, as they could have. Since it wasn’t an agenda item, a board member or the school board attorney could have immediately objected by raising a point of order, and they’d have been right. But none did.
“It was kind of like, I think we were all a little not sure what was going on, and once it happens, you’re kind of like, OK, well, it’s already happened,” Gavin said.
Dance did bring up the matter almost two hours later in the same meeting, describing himself as still “a little confused as to the opening of today’s meeting.” He asked McDonald if this was just for that meeting, or if she had other intentions.
McDonald reiterated what she’d said at the beginning of the meeting, when she said that the pastor was “starting off a new tradition, I hope, to include the members of our faith communities and our support communities out there.” McDonald couched the idea in terms of organizations providing resources. “One of the big initiatives we have is the mental health and personal wellness initiative, and I think our faith community plays a big part in that.” Such organizations have never been barred from sharing their message with the board, either in public comment periods or, if the board agrees, through agenda items.
The genesis of the United Methodist pastor’s appearance remained vague. McDonald said she’d “put it out there to the community and several members of the community were interested, both people in leadership organizations, in faith organizations, and otherwise,” she said, before again speaking of the mental health angle.
McDonald still skirted the issue of the prayer. “As an item I think we need to discuss this because it’s kind of a major shift,” Dance said, “it seems to me like we need board buy-in.”
McDonald said it was a “past practice,” which is true, but a practice almost four decades in the past, and never tied, at the time, to McDonald’s idea of tapping into mental health issues.
The board agreed to place the idea on a September workshop, when Gavin is expected to provide guidance on the issue.
“When it happened, immediately I had staff say, is that legal,” Gavin said in an interview today. “And my answer is, well, yes, it’s legal to do an invocation. And they said, well, I thought that there’s a supreme court case. Well, that’s not what the supreme court case says. The supreme court says it’s still permissible. There’s parameters to it. And we need to make sure we don’t stray from those parameters, because if you do, that’s when you can get in trouble.”
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2014 in a 5-4 decision that invocations at the beginning of meetings were permissible so long as the government agency was not condoning, editing or reviewing the content of the invocation beforehand. “So long as the town maintains a policy of nondiscrimination, the Constitution does not require it to search beyond its borders for non-Christian prayer givers in an effort to achieve religious balancing,” Justice Anthony Kennedy, who has since retired, wrote for the majority, the requirement of a policy clearly explicit. The decision also specified that “any member of the public is welcome in turn to offer an invocation reflecting his or her own convictions.” The convictions don’t have to be denominational.
The decision also specifies that nothing coercive is permissible in an invocation–including a pastor’s (or a board member’s) command to stand, to remain standing, or to sit, as both McDonald and the pastor commanded at Tuesday’s meeting.
“Although board members themselves stood, bowed their heads, or made the sign of the cross during the prayer,” Kennedy wrote in the 2014 decision, “they at no point solicited similar gestures by the public. Respondents point to several occasions where audience members were asked to rise for the prayer. These requests, however, came not from town leaders but from the guest ministers, who presumably are accustomed to directing their congregations in this way and might have done so thinking the action was inclusive, not coercive.”
The decision also specified that any attempt to proselytize is impermissible.
“When I think of invocations,” Gavin said, “I think of what she did at the very beginning of the meeting–her prayer of let’s all be safe, no bullying. The second part, I don’t know who if anyone was aware of that taking place. I don’t even know if Ms. McDonald was aware of that taking place.”
A survey of six of the most conservative counties in the Panhandle–Santa Rosa, Okaloosa, Walton, Holmes, Washington and Escambia–reveals that Escambia alone includes an invocation at the beginning of its school board meetings. Among local governments, all have a moment of silence, none have an invocation, with one exception: Bunnell, where Bunnell city commissioners themselves, in clear violation even of the 2014 ruling, take turns to offer the prayer at the beginning of the meeting, as commissioners (and where those who object are invited to wait outside).
Gavin said she would recommend against that approach, if the rest of the board was inclined to agree to invocations in the future. If it were, Gavin said, it would have to be ready to make room for Wiccans, atheists and any other type of believer or non-believer who asks to provide the invocation. Regulating that sort of content is prohibited, which is why most local governments prefer to avoid the potential dilemma–and potential lawsuits, in increasingly diverse communities–by avoiding explicit invocations and sticking with moments of silence.
deborah mott says
This is wrong and needs to be addressed immediately!
Snack says
This is sad. Though I don’t mind if they let every other group in that wants to throw out their nonsense before each meeting. Like a prayer before this meeting does anything, I prefer a God that I don’t have to beg to do the right thing. Before you conservative nuts, not all are nuts, chime in just note I’m a Trump defender.
Ptctrader says
Can’t hurt… might help… God is Good. ALL THE TIME
Vincent Lyon says
Not only was this improper and disrespectful, it was done in a way that was meant to be sneaky, underhanded, and shocking. They knew it would strike controversy, and they knew it would be unwelcome by many. That’s why they never put it on the agenda.
Nancy N. says
Janet McDonald will not get my vote again if this continues. A school board seat is not license to shove religion down other peoples’ throats.
Opportunist says
We could all use a little more love and a little less hate! Stop hating on differences and just move forward to what’s important and a little prayer could do our generation some good!
Mom of Three says
It is time for Mrs. McDonald to be voted off the school board. She also needs to be removed as chair, NOW.
Dave says
What a disgrace! I am saddened this has been allowed to happen. This is the downfall of Flagler County Schools if something isnt put in place to keep this womans beliefs to herself in a public school environment. Shame. And as for Bunnell I think and investigation needs to Tobin fold to po ur there bias beliefs in check before each meeting, if they want to pray they may go outside!
Sisco Deen says
I am not a Trump defender but argee with Snack – total nonsense
Rich & Wanda Harnage says
Wrong? Wrong? Why is this wrong?
Sherry Blevins says
Praise God and Amen! Anyone who sees a problem with this should honestly be ashamed. Remember we are ONE NATION UNDER GOD!
Here in the south n country we are Trump supporters, pro, life ,and pro God! Feel free to move to California, we see what shape they are in!
Mark says
This is terrible! Lock her up! No business should be conducted until this is corrected!
Fantomdriver says
I don’t see a problem with allowing a prayer at the start of the meeting. Read the Supreme Court decision. What have we come to in this country? We’re all so “politically correct” and fearful of the slightest possible offensive comment!
Lynn Savage says
“A moment of silence for guidance”. Would have covered it without opening an unnessary can of worms. Religion is fine but not in a public agenda. A moment of silence to practice ones own makes more sensr
Jim says
With what is happening with our youth and irresponsible parenting ,maybe a little prayer will help.
Flatsflyer says
Janet is just like her husband, they think they are like Trump. They think they can do anything without consequences, guess what? We will make sure you are unemployed next election.
Willy Boy says
OMG!
Marty Barrett says
Yes lady, I’m sure your imaginary friend in the sky who grants wishes is listening in to the Flagler School Board meeting and, as a result of your overture, will now protect us all. Of course, a gracious and loving God should have thought of this on his own, without you begging for mercy, and prevented any of the prior slaughters of children that we read about all too often. You’re omnipotent, might be a good time to intervene fella. I know, he works in mysterious ways. I give up…….
YankeeExPat says
Jesus is so, so yesterday……Palm Coasters are more the Novenas for Trump type crowd.
“Folks who wear there religion on their sleeve generally have a dirty hand to hide.”
Realist says
If Andy Dance feels the need to question the lords prayer, I feel the need to NOT vote for him for a county position.
Edith Campins says
Between this and the vaccine issue it has become evident that McDonald has to go. This is offensive and downright illegal. I can only hope someone sues her and the Board. Of course the McDonald’s costing our local government for lawsuits is nothing new.
Rosie O'Donnell says
Why is this news? There is a lot of under reported news going on that will seriously impact us all. Many wolves in sheep’s clothing focusing us on shiny things while the important issues are swept under the rug.
Really says
Really I am sure the Board has bigger issues than this. Move on.
Jinbo says
This should not have been allowed. It should have been stopped at the first word. There are many religions in the world. If you let one speak, you have to let them all speak. Who is to say this priests religion is better than mine and why does she get to say a prayer and my religious leader doesn’t.
Be careful what you start here. Next cults and right wing religions will want their time before meetings too. Equal time. Religion and politics is supposed to always be separate.It is a personal thing. If you want to pray, stop on your way to the meeting.
McDonald should have been reprimanded at the meeting for allowing a non agenda item and disrupting the meeting.
JOHN JOHNSON says
Freedom of religion means that you are free to participate (or not) voluntarily in the prayer/moment of silence, or whatever it may be and simply respect those that are, or leave. The only problem I see is coming from those that are insatiated with being in control and not satisfied unless they have caused an issue out of nothing.
Annette says
The First Amendment guarantees freedom of religion in two clauses — the “establishment” clause, which prohibits the government from establishing an official church, and the “free exercise” clause that allows people to worship as they please. Notice that the phrase “separation of church and state” does not appear in the First Amendment, nor is it found anywhere else in the Constitution. Most people do not realize that the phrase was actually coined later by Thomas Jefferson. In 1802, when he was President, he wrote the opinion that the First Amendment’s freedom of religion clause was designed to build “a wall of separation between Church and State.”.
Amendment 1 – Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or “Prohibiting The Free Exercise Thereof; Or Abridging The Freedom Of Speech,” or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. So now you all are educated on the matter, and now know that Thomas Jefferson coined the phrase “Separation of Church and State.” You have to agree Mrs. McDonald, Had, Has, and will always Have, her Constitutional Right to Exercise her Freedom to pray out loud anywhere. You also have these rights. So to all of you responding to this story, would you like to be silenced? It is a very slippery slope.
Phyllis kramer says
How disrespectful! Very surprised that no one said anything to her immediately afterwards. She was out of order.
Bill says
“Gracious and loving God, we call on you to surround all of our schools here locally and around the nation with your protection, pray for protection from acts of violence and bullying, with words for educators to be filled with grace You may be seated.”
WOW what HORRIBLE things to hear?????? Also Flagler live how is this strictly a “Christian” Prayer?
Derrol Sadler says
Just wondering…did anything happen at the meeting that would improve our students’ education???
William Moya says
Fascism is taking over all our institutions the Age of Reason is gone, they invoke the Constitution (think second Amendment, Electoral College, the Flag as justification for all the transgression we have committed, and then if all that fails they bring up the nexus that glues it all together god. Furthermore is working, the King of Israel is now our president, chosen directly by Him. These people are now the American Taliban (the Teachers)
Eve says
I support prayer at any meetings. I support Janet MvDonald and will vote for her and encourage others to do so.
Stanley P Gruchawka says
Unbelievable that there are so many adversarial comments about a prayer. You kicked God out of our schools and government and now people wonder why our God “allows” things like mass shootings. Remember that you turned your back on Him you intolerant progressives.
Katie Gable says
Good for Jeanine Clontz it’s about time someone prayed for our schools in public. We are dealing with tragedies that our little county as been fortunate not to face until now including murder, drugs being brought to school by elementary school children and suicide. We should all be praying for our students and staff on a daily basis and not just one meeting.
Wayne says
Good to know, This Woman will never get a vote from me!
What religion, and who’s god?
Dave says
I personally feel prayer is more dangerous for our children than guns. And I hate guns , but religion is far more damaging to a childs mind. McDonald should be removed!
Cert5 says
Many of the perils our communities and nation face are a result of removing God from our everyday lives. 2 Chronicles 7:14, is what we as a people need to do so that our land can be healed. Only God can and will if we turn from our evil ways.
Stretchem says
My God is representated, in my religion, as a horny toad. In my religion, it is customary to carry our God around with us everywhere we go, including municipal school board meetings. My God demands that prior to all meetings involving two or more persons, that we are to hold up our representative religious figure (horny toad), kiss it on the buttocks, and chant John Cougar Mellencamp’s Ain’t That America, backwards.
But no worries. It is my constitutional right to do this whether you and YOUR God likes it or not.
Hammock Bear says
If one does not want to say a prayer then either sit down or stand and simply think about the topics of the meeting. Just keep your mout shut and be polite. That will not hurt you.
JD says
I’m going to show up and pray to The Almighty Great Potato at the next school board meeting. I wonder if they’ll sit through that BS like that sat through the pastor’s.
Pogo says
@Wow
The same slobs who follow resident rump around on their knees, dragging their gun safes behind them, have come up with a smooth pitch to HBO to use Flagr’ (sic) county for location shots for The Righteous Gemstones. [1] doG bless your tiny little hearts.
https://www.google.com/search?ei=g-deXYncJJHH_QbAmIz4Dg&q=righteous+gemstones&oq=righteous+gemstones&gs_l=psy-ab.12…0.0..55178…0.0..0.0.0…….0……gws-wiz.QUQtLZovN00&ved=0ahUKEwjJqf-AlpfkAhWRY98KHUAMA-8Q4dUDCAo [1]
Ld says
Pastor said “will you bow in prayer with me” ,to which those not inclined had the option to do otherwise or object.. What was out of order was “You may be seated” which is a directive used in church services. What is also out of order is promoting her church and its programs unless that was an item on the agenda which is not clear. Had the prayer and pastor comments been on the agenda hopefully made available to members prior to the meeting this may have been better received.
Will says
I don’t know how many of you were at the meeting or have children in school, but if that’s what you think of prayer and common civility, you must be a real role model for your kids.
Godgunscountry says
It’s so sad to see the amount of blind people in Palm coast. People who one day will bow their knee at the almighty sovereign God. We need prayer inside our schools. The reason no other religious leader said a prayer, such as seventh day or jw is because when they step out into public to pray for our youth, they would be exposed for their phony false preaching they spew. God bless this blind town
Exit 81 says
The Founding Fathers did a great job , but they made one huge mistake. They should have changed “Freedom of Religion ” to “Freedom FROM Religion “. I would rather make decisions based science than fairy tales.
Mary Fusco says
It just amazes me that we are living in this horrific society where life means nothing and people are up in arms over a short prayer. We are living with a generation or more of people who have no respect for anything or anybody, but prayer is a problem. We are living with unbelievable violence, but prayer is a problem. I’m not a particularly religious person. But, let’s address the real problems.
ASF says
Separation of Church and State–it’s a thing.
Lena marshall says
Wake up Flagler County these Mc Donals think they run this town!!!!
gmath55 says
When I was in elementary school back in the 60’s we said a pray and the Pledge of Allegiance before class everyday. I don’t see it as a big deal and with that lets all say a pray for all the atheist comments.
Pogo says
@Oh Floriduh
Where they relive the Scopes Trial [1] every day.
https://www.google.com/search?-b-1-d&q=scopes+trial [1]
Flagler parent says
Unbelievable! It is frightening that so many are appalled that they said a prayer to bless our children and schools for the year. Oh my! No one was forced. You want to know why there is so much evil in our schools now a days it’s because you took GOD out. Listen folks your choice if you don’t want to believe, but you can’t force those of us that do, not to. We can pray in our home, in our city, in our church, in our schools, wherever, We have a right to do so. Just like you have a right not to. This nation was formed under God, with the belief that we are all given certain unalienable rights by him. Watch what you worship. She’ll have my vote!
Annette says
Separation of Church and State is Not in the United States Constitution. It is a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson.
Sarah says
I am contacting the Freedom from religion foundation about this and definitely about the bennell city council blatantly violating the 1st amendment and breaking the law. If the Flagler county school board really wants to go down this road I know plenty of local atheist parents who will fight it until death. We will not let your poisonous religion infect our schools and our children. Unacceptable.
Tim Haugan says
Judging from the comments, Flagler needs all the help it can get.
Steadfastandloyal says
Thank God our founding fathers had more wisdom vision and a principled belief system to lay the foundation of our country in the almighty “In God We Trust”- look how far we’ve come.
Roy says
Oh, the horror!
Sarah says
This is a blatant violation of the Constitution. SCOTUS has already ruled multiple times that invocations are only allowed in government meetings if (a) every position is allowed equal access and (b) the government officials are not involved. Further, school board meeting shave been specifically ruled on as an exception, as children are involved- no invocations allowed. It also violates solicitation rules, as she was basically shilling for her church after.
This illegal action can get a school district sued, and they WOULD lose as there is already Supreme Court directive on this exact issue. It could cost the district hundreds of thousands of dollars, and all because some Christians can’t stop pushing their religion on other people.
LKopp says
Although I am a person who prays in my daily routine. I understand the separation of Church and State. School Board Meeting are a function of the State Government and religion has no place! Religion also has no place in schools. Morality, spirituality and civility are responsibilities of parents and community (who have failed the nation’s children repeatedly by our social/personal interactions, actions/inaction…) It is NOT the responsibility of educators or school boards officials. This practice should stop here with this incident. If Ms. McDonald’s intent was to include religion and prayer into the County School Board Meetings, she should have presented it as an agenda item first, then put it up for discussion, community input, and board vote. For those of you wishing to have religions in schools…remember…be careful what you wish for!
FL Orange County Public Schools allowed religious entities to distribute religious materials (flyers, group meeting, event notices etc…) to school children. It was quickly reversed when a satanic group distributed Worship Satan Coloring Books… remember if you allow religions in the classroom that leads to the slippery slope of inclusion of ALL religions.
[email protected] says
I agree 100% with Derrol Sadler and Wayne.
steve says
@ Sadler I know right? lol
Eugene Hartke says
As someone who went thru twelve years of Christian education, it offends me to see my tax dollars being used by these Bible-Belters to push their Satan-spawned heresy on us True Believers.
Surfneck says
She did what she beloved was right. If you are not a beliver that’s on you. God is good and he loves his children. Palm coast code enforcement blows though…
Mark says
War I say! Good grief, get a life!
Chris says
When they allow a prayer by local satanists and other faith groups this will be fine. Until then, she took advantage of a situation and deserves to pay for it
PARENT OF 2 KIDS says
OK, I NEVER get into these debates but this is so STUPID people. I am by far not into any religion or cults or anything like that. Out of respect for others in the world if I go somewhere no matter where and people are saying a prayer I will stand there quietly and respect what they believe in (unless it is hurting someone). I know a lot of people of different religions and if I go to someone’s house, wedding, anything I respect them and they respect me. All this nonsense about going to the Freedom from religion foundation and protesting is a joke. If you really want to protest something protest more protection at the schools, neighborhoods, and events that a lot of people attend. Yes I understand that is not allowed at the meetings and if an individual has a problem with it maybe go to the county office and speak to someone about it. I bet more than 90% of you no longer have kids in the public schools nor go to the board meetings. A lot of you will now say you do have kids in the school and do attend meetings but I doubt it. If you care about the youth of this community go to the board meetings and get more active in the community. I just wish that our community would stop worrying about the little things and open their eyes about everything else. Lets not raise our kids to hate each other because they believe in something else or because they are a different color/nationality. They need to respect EVERYONE and this is not helping our kids showing them lets fight because it is not what WE believe. They should respect each other not matter what it is.
Sherry says
Thomas Jefferson believed in the complete “separation of church and state” for an excellent reason. We should all learn from the historic examples of times when “Religious Power” was at least partially responsible for vast atrocities against human beings all in the name of “MY God is BETTER than YOUR God”:
1. Christian Nazis= Holocaust
2. The Troubles Between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland
3. The Catholic “Inquisition”
and on. . . and on . . . and on
Between this and the vaccine debacle . . . the McDonalds think they run Flagler county. Remember this at election time!
Jim says
Dave- I am not a big religious person but I would rather have my kids taught that prayer is ok in lieu that at 12 years old it is ok to change your gender. That idea is encouraged in many public schools
Lin says
A prayer was said before a School Board meeting, and now all these insults of Christians going back to Nazis and the Inquisition. I think the prayer was not appropriate in this circumstance but the intolerance for Christians is so much worse. The growth of anti-Semitism, and bigotry in general is growing and these awful mocking comments aren’t helping.
Traveling Rep says
I just wanted to chime in with: God bless you all, everyone!
Oh, and TRUMP 2020!!! MAGA
Dave says
Identifying with a gender that fits your feelings at 12 is way more of a natural pure honest act than what religion has become or has been since the beginning.
A.J. says
Prefer prayer than school shootings. Storm may be coming, some people still reject prayer. I’ n glad she prayed. I believe if we had more prayer in school there will be less school shootings. Less shootings all over the country. I prefer to pray and make enemies than committal cripple and go to jail. Last I checked prayer did not hurt anyone in school of the world, but crimes do hurt & kill.
Joe Public says
The comments here are absurd. Great job to you all. Whatever happened to the separation of church and state. This is sick to force people to sit through the prayers of YOUR religion.